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tonight at 6, they said they city are going to talk about why they did it and an "alternative" plan for that lot.
The business journal reported (paywall) that the city backed out because Carroll was not meeting the deadline to get started on the deck. Project Slugger has to be complete by 2019 and the city didnt think Carroll would have his deck complete in time.. Carroll said he didnt know there was a deadline. No one approached him. Instead the city will build a cheaper stand alone deck across the street. Carroll was done wrong. The city should have approached him last fall to speed up his deck. The delay was not all Carroll's fault. The city delayed voting on he decks as well. The city did pull the rug from underneath Carroll. If Carroll wants to make his project work on the same site he could build a skywalk over Eugene Street to where the new deck will be built. His tower would be 8 stories smaller but he can make it work out if he chooses to do so. He stated he would likely not build his project on that site now.
More details.... Let's just say Roy Carroll is fuming. Its very possible this situation could really damage the relationship between Roy Carroll and the city to the point that he may just decide not to do anything else downtown.
Yes its sad i hope he doesn't let this one set back stop enthusiasm for Uptown Greensboro. On the bright side we are getting project slugger, the western hotel and I hope we still get project 561 down the road. Glad to be moving back to Greensboro from Charlotte!
"Carroll said he was caught off guard. He'd worked with the city for nearly a year to iron out plans, but told officials he wasn't ready to commit until he had tenants lined up.
On Wednesday, city officials laid out a different version of events. They said Carroll knew they were concerned that he couldn't provide a timetable for the private development tied to the public deck.
The delay, they said, was threatening the future of the much anticipated "Project Slugger.""
Basically, Carroll's delays and uncertainty were threatening another "bird in the hand" (Project Slugger), so the city needed to move on with A parking deck so as to ensure that they didn't lose Project Slugger. This isn't hard to understand. The 15-20 story office tower is already a heck of a reach (heck, 9-story Project Slugger was downsized to six largely due to lack of demand so how in the world is ANOTHER 15-20 story office tower going to find tenants at a similar time? Then you have Carroll at Bellmeade which has basically moved at a snail's pace for the last 6-9 months or so.
Frankly, I'm not sure this move necessarily ends any hope of a similar project on the same land. The land will still be there if I'm not mistaken. It might not be Carroll who ultimately develops it though. The market needs to mature for Greensboro to be ready for a project of the scope Carroll is proposing.
"Carroll said he was caught off guard. He'd worked with the city for nearly a year to iron out plans, but told officials he wasn't ready to commit until he had tenants lined up.
On Wednesday, city officials laid out a different version of events. They said Carroll knew they were concerned that he couldn't provide a timetable for the private development tied to the public deck.
The delay, they said, was threatening the future of the much anticipated "Project Slugger.""
Basically, Carroll's delays and uncertainty were threatening another "bird in the hand" (Project Slugger), so the city needed to move on with A parking deck so as to ensure that they didn't lose Project Slugger. This isn't hard to understand. The 15-20 story office tower is already a heck of a reach (heck, 9-story Project Slugger was downsized to six largely due to lack of demand so how in the world is ANOTHER 15-20 story office tower going to find tenants at a similar time? Then you have Carroll at Bellmeade which has basically moved at a snail's pace for the last 6-9 months or so.
Frankly, I'm not sure this move necessarily ends any hope of a similar project on the same land. The land will still be there if I'm not mistaken. It might not be Carroll who ultimately develops it though. The market needs to mature for Greensboro to be ready for a project of the scope Carroll is proposing.
The question is not whether Greensboro is ready for it. The city backing out had nothing to do with beliefs Greensboro wasnt ready for what Carroll planned. Tbe bottom line. Project Slugger was just further along and the city didn't want to jepordize a project that was closer to construction.
Pretty much confirmed that it was Project 561. Carroll said he does plan to build it but after the city's move it will be much further delayed. He'll just have to figure out how hes going to provide his own parking.
The question is not whether Greensboro is ready for it. The city backing out had nothing to do with beliefs Greensboro wasnt ready for what Carroll planned. Tbe bottom line. Project Slugger was just further along and the city didn't want to jepordize a project that was closer to construction.
Pretty much confirmed that it was Project 561. Carroll said he does plan to build it but after the city's move it will be much further delayed. He'll just have to figure out how hes going to provide his own parking.
Your first paragraph is exactly what I said though. Project Slugger is ready (and has already been reduced in scope largely due to waiting on Carroll). Carroll's project isn't ready and frankly keeps getting its timeline pushed (not to mention Carroll at Bellmeade is STILL under construction about a year after it was supposed to be completed). So the city is going with the bird in the hand. It's the no-brainer answer. That said, I'm sure the realistic viability (or lack thereof) of "Project 561" probably played a role as well. I'm guessing that Carroll is having trouble finding tenants (surprise surprise).
The good news though is that Project Slugger is a go.... as is the Westin. Those two projects are big wins for downtown. And then the crown jewel (the Performing arts center) also appears to be making real progress towards completion. So all is not lost in downtown. The city is just doing what it needs to do. The city would have been stupid to keep waiting on Carroll IMO. It does sound like the city could have done a better job communicating though.
Your first paragraph is exactly what I said though. Project Slugger is ready (and has already been reduced in scope largely due to waiting on Carroll). Carroll's project isn't ready and frankly keeps getting its timeline pushed (not to mention Carroll at Bellmeade is STILL under construction about a year after it was supposed to be completed). So the city is going with the bird in the hand. It's the no-brainer answer. That said, I'm sure the realistic viability (or lack thereof) of "Project 561" probably played a role as well. I'm guessing that Carroll is having trouble finding tenants (surprise surprise).
The good news though is that Project Slugger is a go.... as is the Westin. Those two projects are big wins for downtown. And then the crown jewel (the Performing arts center) also appears to be making real progress towards completion. So all is not lost in downtown. The city is just doing what it needs to do. The city would have been stupid to keep waiting on Carroll IMO. It does sound like the city could have done a better job communicating though.
Sounds like the overall most reasonable explanation.
Your first paragraph is exactly what I said though. Project Slugger is ready (and has already been reduced in scope largely due to waiting on Carroll). Carroll's project isn't ready and frankly keeps getting its timeline pushed (not to mention Carroll at Bellmeade is STILL under construction about a year after it was supposed to be completed). So the city is going with the bird in the hand. It's the no-brainer answer. That said, I'm sure the realistic viability (or lack thereof) of "Project 561" probably played a role as well. I'm guessing that Carroll is having trouble finding tenants (surprise surprise).
The good news though is that Project Slugger is a go.... as is the Westin. Those two projects are big wins for downtown. And then the crown jewel (the Performing arts center) also appears to be making real progress towards completion. So all is not lost in downtown. The city is just doing what it needs to do. The city would have been stupid to keep waiting on Carroll IMO. It does sound like the city could have done a better job communicating though.
It still doesnt make sense. The plan was for Carroll to build the deck so it would be ready for Project Slugger and then AT A LATER DATE build his project on top when he's ready. Keep in mind it was really the city, not Carroll who dragged its feet on the deck which led to Project Slugger being downsized. They were ready to build in September, but the city had combined both decks as one agenda item and when they delayed the Westin deck, Carroll's deck got delayed. In fact Carroll was pressing the city back in December to move forward. It was only then when the city decided to seperate the two deck into two different agenda items. The city is not being truthful in regards to who is responsible for the delay when everything documented in the media and city council meetings shows the city was at fault. This is why Carroll is flabbergasted.
The city then announced construction on Carroll's deck would begin this summer. The design for the deck was complete. There was nothing stopping Carroll from keeping his end of the bargain to start construction on the deck portion. Now that the city has to start all over, buy land, design a new deck, it will take at least six month to get to where the city was with Caroll's deck today which in my mind will further put Project Slugger in jeopardy. Ironically the city's move to save Project Slugger, may end up killing the project. They should have just stayed with Carroll. The city is blaming Carroll for the delay to hide the fact we have some incompatent people running the city. The whole process with both decks has been nothing but a big mess and I think its pretty shady for the city to just out of the blue pull the rug from up under Roy Carroll and say we're going to plan B. Not to mention the hundreds of thousands of dollars the city put into the planning and design of Carroll's deck is being flushed down the toilet. Ive never seen a city be that careless with so much money. The investment alone should have been a reason for the city to stick with Carroll.
The good news.... The Westin moves forward and if the city had not paid Scarfone off because of the mistakes they made with that deal, the Westin would be dead and all of the time and investment on both these decks would have been for naught. The city paid over $700,000 for a small easement that was worth $50,000 to move the Westin deck forward. Stupid mistakes with both decks has cause the city to be wasteful with the taxpayers money. It also appears that some of the council members are upset about the city's decision.
Right now Carroll is upset with the city. Once everyone calms down, Carroll needs to regroup and the city needs to make it right. Carroll should move forward with his tower and since the deck will now be across the street from Carroll's site, build a skywalk over Eugene Street connecting the deck with Carroll's tower. That should be the next alternative since the deck will not be sitting beneath it. No need to kill the whole project because the deck wont be beneath the tower. I get it though, Carroll wants 561. He'll just have to figure out another way to make up 8 floors or settle for something a little smaller than 561.
It still doesnt make sense. The plan was for Carroll to build the deck so it would be ready for Project Slugger and then AT A LATER DATE build his project on top when he's ready. Keep in mind it was really the city, not Carroll who dragged its feet on the deck which led to Project Slugger being downsized. They were ready to build in September, but the city had combined both decks as one agenda item and when they delayed the Westin deck, Carroll's deck got delayed. In fact Carroll was pressing the city back in December to move forward. It was only then when the city decided to seperate the two deck into two different agenda items. The city is not being truthful in regards to who is responsible for the delay when everything documented in the media and city council meetings shows the city was at fault. This is why Carroll is flabbergasted.
The city then announced construction on Carroll's deck would begin this summer. The design for the deck was complete. There was nothing stopping Carroll from keeping his end of the bargain to start construction on the deck portion. Now that the city has to start all over, buy land, design a new deck, it will take at least six month to get to where the city was with Caroll's deck today which in my mind will further put Project Slugger in jeopardy. Ironically the city's move to save Project Slugger, may end up killing the project. They should have just stayed with Carroll. The city is blaming Carroll for the delay to hide the fact we have some incompatent people running the city. The whole process with both decks has been nothing but a big mess and I think its pretty shady for the city to just out of the blue pull the rug from up under Roy Carroll and say we're going to plan B. Not to mention the hundreds of thousands of dollars the city put into the planning and design of Carroll's deck is being flushed down the toilet. Ive never seen a city be that careless with so much money. The investment alone should have been a reason for the city to stick with Carroll.
The good news.... The Westin moves forward and if the city had not paid Scarfone off because of the mistakes they made with that deal, the Westin would be dead and all of the time and investment on both these decks would have been for naught. The city paid over $700,000 for a small easement that was worth $50,000 to move the Westin deck forward. Stupid mistakes with both decks has cause the city to be wasteful with the taxpayers money. It also appears that some of the council members are upset about the city's decision.
Right now Carroll is upset with the city. Once everyone calms down, Carroll needs to regroup and the city needs to make it right. Carroll should move forward with his tower and since the deck will now be across the street from Carroll's site, build a skywalk over Eugene Street connecting the deck with Carroll's tower. That should be the next alternative since the deck will not be sitting beneath it. No need to kill the whole project because the deck wont be beneath the tower. I get it though, Carroll wants 561. He'll just have to figure out another way to make up 8 floors or settle for something a little smaller than 561.
Some mistakes have been made by the city, but it would be asinine to assert that the city is completely or mostly to blame. Why would the city simply end the project abruptly without good reason and upset probably their biggest developer? The best explanation is that the city doesn't see any real reason to believe that Carroll is going to come through with the deck (either on the timeline he says he will or even at all). Frankly, I don't see any real reason to believe Project 561 is remotely viable.
Also, why is Carroll so worried about not know there was a deadline? This whole project has had well over a year to generate some traction and yet we didn't seem much closer to construction than we were at the beginning. The city needed to move on. Like you said GSOBoi, it's going to take some time to procure land and design the deck at the other site... any further delays moving forward on that would certainly be the end of Project Slugger.
Basically, the city could choose to move forward and LIKELY keep Project Slugger but lose the non-viable Project 561... or the city could hold out hopes for an unrealistic project to press on on the timelines projected by a developer who has not exactly kept up with his timelines of late at the likely expense of Project Slugger (ultimately ending up with neither project when all was said and done).
Seriously though, I do wonder why you're so quick to stick up for Carroll. He clearly has at least as much blame as the city... if not the vast majority of it.
Some mistakes have been made by the city, but it would be asinine to assert that the city is completely or mostly to blame. Why would the city simply end the project abruptly without good reason and upset probably their biggest developer? The best explanation is that the city doesn't see any real reason to believe that Carroll is going to come through with the deck (either on the timeline he says he will or even at all). Frankly, I don't see any real reason to believe Project 561 is remotely viable.
Also, why is Carroll so worried about not know there was a deadline? This whole project has had well over a year to generate some traction and yet we didn't seem much closer to construction than we were at the beginning. The city needed to move on. Like you said GSOBoi, it's going to take some time to procure land and design the deck at the other site... any further delays moving forward on that would certainly be the end of Project Slugger.
Basically, the city could choose to move forward and LIKELY keep Project Slugger but lose the non-viable Project 561... or the city could hold out hopes for an unrealistic project to press on on the timelines projected by a developer who has not exactly kept up with his timelines of late at the likely expense of Project Slugger (ultimately ending up with neither project when all was said and done).
Seriously though, I do wonder why you're so quick to stick up for Carroll. He clearly has at least as much blame as the city... if not the vast majority of it.
Again the plan was to go ahead and build the deck first to be ready for Project Slugger. Then when Carroll was ready build his tower. It was set up like that so Carroll's timeline would not interfere with Project Slugger. Why not go forward with it? If something were to happen to cause Carroll to cancel his tower, the city would still have a deck and much sooner than they will now. Apparently the project was viable because Aloft had signed on. Aloft is not going to sign on to something without concrete plans. And it listed an opening date of 2020. Also there is no guarantee the city will be able to buy the land for the new deck.
But let the dust settle. You never know what might end up happening. I can't see Carroll abandoning his project after all the money and time he's already put into unlike the city.
Last edited by gsoboi78; 04-26-2018 at 04:48 AM..
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