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He aha kou pilikia? A'ole wai? WIKIWIKI,,,, NANA KA KULI!!!!!
you ever heard the other theory about "nanaku'ulei"? I still like the original "nanakuli" one myself and find myself passing that on to the keiki I work with
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jungjohann
Do some research on the monk seals over here, has nothing what so ever to do with seals in California. Totally different scenario, totally different situation, and indicative of a larger problem in Hawaii. But some people just wouldn't grasp that.
It's definitely indicative of a larger problem on the Islands, and a sad one at that.
Moved there in 1979 until, as I recall 1984, and several return stays.
Jeffington, maybe it is time for you to visit Hawaii again. This time I suggest you get out and explore the islands more. Stroll the beaches, sit and talk to the people who live there. Spend some time and you will learn that you REALLY have no clue what you are talking about when it comes to Hawaii.
Now that said, on the mainland there are problems in certain areas with the seals or sea lions. I have no idea which is which. One such place is in the Columbia River in Oregon/Washington. However, this is not the forum for that debate.
Welp, send the seals up to Waianae first, and see if they don't quickly beat a retreat back to Moloka'i - "Yo, dis kine hairy kane try fo' steal my wave!"
You do know why they call that area "Nanakuli", right?
Do some research on the monk seals over here, has nothing what so ever to do with seals in California. Totally different scenario, totally different situation, and indicative of a larger problem in Hawaii. But some people just wouldn't grasp that.
Exactly. The New York Times article in the original post has most of the answers about who is killing monk seals and why. It has nothing to do with boats and private property. Sorry to say it this way, but that was a totally misinformed mainland opinion. Monk Seals do not climb on boats like the California Sea lions and harbor seals.
He aha kou pilikia? A'ole wai? WIKIWIKI,,,, NANA KA KULI!!!!!
Do some research on the monk seals over here, has nothing what so ever to do with seals in California. Totally different scenario, totally different situation, and indicative of a larger problem in Hawaii. But some people just wouldn't grasp that.
I recall details amount this Seal from the 1970s. Severely threatened.
At no time have I advocated hunting, hurting, killing, harming, or interfering with them or their habitat
I only posited my theory on why somebody would kill them, seemingly gratuitously. As an ecological Hot Potato, some people would not be happy to give up their beach, their surf area etc. to Seals, regardless how endangered they are.
My descriptions about the CA Seal situation, the K-Rat Situation, Desert Tortoise Situation, Delta Smelt Situation etc., etc., etc., was NOT to say they are identical in detail, but similar in their impact to the community and, MOST IMPORTANTLY, some people's reaction thereto, potential or realized.
Unfortunately, some people, apparently loathe to read for comprehension, and more interested at scoring "gotcha" points, fly off half-cocked and assert all sorts of rubbish about my motives, message, perspectives etc., but do so at their own detriment.
Exactly. The New York Times article in the original post has most of the answers about who is killing monk seals and why. It has nothing to do with boats and private property. Sorry to say it this way, but that was a totally misinformed mainland opinion. Monk Seals do not climb on boats like the California Sea lions and harbor seals.
Neither did the ones in California, well until they started - and got away with it.
I know the article is long, but if you read the whole thing it reads like a mystery, and ultimately it answers the OP's question.
The saddest thing to me is that the Monk Seals were in the Hawaiian Islands long, long before any people were, and really should be revered by everyone as Native Animals, if people only knew the truth.
But of course, the same could be said of most, if not all of all the endangered species the US Government protects. They were native before humans arrived. And human activity, in most cases, is what is causing species to become endangered.
The more disconnected we become as a species from the natural world, the more of it will disappear. Is that the legacy we want to leave our grandchildren, a world that is poorer because of the way we treated it in our lifetimes? In my case, the answer is no. That's why I think educating people about conservation is vitally important.
The saddest thing to me is that the Monk Seals were in the Hawaiian Islands long, long before any people were, and really should be revered by everyone as Native Animals, if people only knew the truth.
I tend to agree with you, Open, but let's be honest - not everyone feels the same. I believe RR's argument is from a different perspective, and you can't really knock someone for giving their opinion. Not that you were knocking him, but the point still stands.
Life is in a constant state of flux. The more I study zoology and evolution, the more I realize how random many things are. Random colors/shapes/behaviors are passed on inadvertently, and species slowly evolve. All of us on this planet are sharing similar resources and physiology (e.g., food intake, reproduction, etc). We might do them in violently different ways, but we all do these things (not all people reproduce).
However, some people can look it from a different point of view (let's call it a 'top-down' view), where humans are at the top. Some of us look at it a bit differently (let's call it a 'lateral' view), where we see the interconnection between everything.
I work secondarily in conservation, and though most of you may hate spiders, you have no idea the benefit they bring to our world. However, do I knock anyone for feeling differently? Hell no. At some point I have to rise above my animal evolution and use that beautiful cortex that only we have evolved. Do I understand RR's point of view? Sure. Pretty simple. Do I agree with it? Definitely not. Do I still enjoy his opinion? For definite!
The only way to deal with these things is through COMMUNICATION, which really, is a two-way street. You have to listen in order to speak. It's how we all learned language in the first place. You must listen so you can learn from others. Even if their point of view is different. Perhaps being raised where I was, this was common knowledge. Maybe this is something you can't learn later on in life, I don't know nor do I claim to know.
Remember, this is coming from someone who gets knee-deep in brush, mud, detritus and pumice in order to track down the fragile and beautiful endemic spiders that grew with these islands. Conservation doesn't work as a 'top-down' approach, where we tell everyone what is best. Though there are vestiges of that (e.g., federal laws, etc), conservation really only works when the vast majority of everyday people understand why. Again, it comes down to the communication, and listening to why some people don't want to conserve. You would be surprised at how two opposing points-of-view can be dovetailed by simple communication. It's hard to say "conserve these spiders because they're declining". Well, why should anyone care? It's only after some communication that I can share WHY I believe we need to conserve, and why you all can help. Wouldn't work from just a 'top-down' approach. Too simplistic and idealistic (this, coming from me!)
The world will be here long after we are all dead, and eventually all the animals will die. Our planet will return to the universe that gave birth to it, and none of this will be remembered. Has this happened before? Will it happen again? Who can say. But while we're here, I'd love to preserve as much of the natural color, sights and sounds that evolved with my tribe as possible. Though evolution will slowly march on, and those who can adapt will survive, it is always sad to lose such beautiful creatures.
It is the same with language conservation. I was there in the Anchorage hospital in January of 2008 when the last Eyak speaker died (Mary Jones). With her died all the idioms, adages, jokes and stories of her people. Of course, people can still learn Eyak language through the dictionaries and grammars we produced, but, still, I watched it die. Is it supposed to happen? Sure, such is the course of nature. There is a subtle beauty to death of anything, which I don't expect others to understand conservation the way I do. However, this is my point of view - in a strange way, it gives me much peace to think about life and death like this. And I enjoy learning others' ideas and thoughts.
I tend to agree with you, Open, but let's be honest - not everyone feels the same. I believe RR's argument is from a different perspective, and you can't really knock someone for giving their opinion. Not that you were knocking him, but the point still stands.
Life is in a constant state of flux. The more I study zoology and evolution, the more I realize how random many things are. Random colors/shapes/behaviors are passed on inadvertently, and species slowly evolve. All of us on this planet are sharing similar resources and physiology (e.g., food intake, reproduction, etc). We might do them in violently different ways, but we all do these things (not all people reproduce).
However, some people can look it from a different point of view (let's call it a 'top-down' view), where humans are at the top. Some of us look at it a bit differently (let's call it a 'lateral' view), where we see the interconnection between everything.
I work secondarily in conservation, and though most of you may hate spiders, you have no idea the benefit they bring to our world. However, do I knock anyone for feeling differently? Hell no. At some point I have to rise above my animal evolution and use that beautiful cortex that only we have evolved. Do I understand RR's point of view? Sure. Pretty simple. Do I agree with it? Definitely not. Do I still enjoy his opinion? For definite!
The only way to deal with these things is through COMMUNICATION, which really, is a two-way street. You have to listen in order to speak. It's how we all learned language in the first place. You must listen so you can learn from others. Even if their point of view is different. Perhaps being raised where I was, this was common knowledge. Maybe this is something you can't learn later on in life, I don't know nor do I claim to know.
Remember, this is coming from someone who gets knee-deep in brush, mud, detritus and pumice in order to track down the fragile and beautiful endemic spiders that grew with these islands. Conservation doesn't work as a 'top-down' approach, where we tell everyone what is best. Though there are vestiges of that (e.g., federal laws, etc), conservation really only works when the vast majority of everyday people understand why. Again, it comes down to the communication, and listening to why some people don't want to conserve. You would be surprised at how two opposing points-of-view can be dovetailed by simple communication. It's hard to say "conserve these spiders because they're declining". Well, why should anyone care? It's only after some communication that I can share WHY I believe we need to conserve, and why you all can help. Wouldn't work from just a 'top-down' approach. Too simplistic and idealistic (this, coming from me!)
The world will be here long after we are all dead, and eventually all the animals will die. Our planet will return to the universe that gave birth to it, and none of this will be remembered. Has this happened before? Will it happen again? Who can say. But while we're here, I'd love to preserve as much of the natural color, sights and sounds that evolved with my tribe as possible. Though evolution will slowly march on, and those who can adapt will survive, it is always sad to lose such beautiful creatures.
It is the same with language conservation. I was there in the Anchorage hospital in January of 2008 when the last Eyak speaker died (Mary Jones). With her died all the idioms, adages, jokes and stories of her people. Of course, people can still learn Eyak language through the dictionaries and grammars we produced, but, still, I watched it die. Is it supposed to happen? Sure, such is the course of nature. There is a subtle beauty to death of anything, which I don't expect others to understand conservation the way I do. However, this is my point of view - in a strange way, it gives me much peace to think about life and death like this. And I enjoy learning others' ideas and thoughts.
Thank you for that very meaningful and thoughtful message.
Government makes laws for the society as a whole. The individual loses sometimes. But the sum of individuals under the same government enjoy better representation and protection. It's called 'democracy'.
If the monk seal decides to crap on your patio, it is protected and entitled to do so. Send the cleanup bill to the DLNR and get reimbursed. Whine on message boards. Thousand other citizens will envy you for having had a rare monk seals on your patio and would even treasure their poop.
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