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If you are afraid of the disease that kills 0.1% of everyone that catches it, death rate way lower for healthy individuals, then you should self quarantine yourself in your home and let everyone else get back to their life if they choose to. If you are afraid you'll contract it and give it to elderly relatives or work in medical industry compromised people, then you should also self quarantine. The death rate is already currently down to flu levels, and will likely go way lower once a viable vaccine is developed.
If you are afraid of the disease that kills 0.1% of everyone that catches it, death rate way lower for healthy individuals, then you should self quarantine yourself in your home and let everyone else get back to their life if they choose to. If you are afraid you'll contract it and give it to elderly relatives or work in medical industry compromised people, then you should also self quarantine. The death rate is already currently down to flu levels, and will likely go way lower once a viable vaccine is developed.
I'd also advise avoiding CNN.
You'd think carts are going around saying - bring out your dead. Its only been 250,000 deaths out of millions of cases. Actually tens of millions of cases given how many people never get any symptom
I mean bummer for the 250,000 but what about the rest of us. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few as my buddy Mr Spock would say
You'd think carts are going around saying - bring out your dead. Its only been 250,000 deaths out of millions of cases. Actually tens of millions of cases given how many people never get any symptom
I mean bummer for the 250,000 but what about the rest of us. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few as my buddy Mr Spock would say
It makes zero sense what's going on. It's like pointing at an unfortunate car accident victim, pedestrian victim, etc etc. as reasons why nobody should drive, walk across the street, swim at a beach, etc etc and should stay home and basically not do anything. It's insane. At a certain point, the risks in participating in activities and life outweigh the risk of injury or dying.
If you personally don't feel those risks are acceptable, then you should personally not drive, not eat fast food, not walk across the street, not skydive, etc etc. Everyone makes that choice every day, with such a low covid death rate, their choice shouldn't be imposed on others.
Well, bummer after all - but he is one of 7.5 Billion.
But we can save all those sufferers - just because they don't know any better - shouldn't we save them? More deaths per day from Covid for years and years ago and to come. Can we save them from themselves?
Anyway - I look at Nick Saban and Cam Newton lately - back on the football field in a week. You are trying to save us all from a virus that many people will never show a single symptom - none - zero - nada. If it wasn't for daily testing for them - they'd (and us) would never know they had it. So to penalize the many for the needs of the few is crazy.
Go big or go home
Quote:
Originally Posted by rya96797
If you are afraid of the disease that kills 0.1% of everyone that catches it, death rate way lower for healthy individuals, then you should self quarantine yourself in your home and let everyone else get back to their life if they choose to. If you are afraid you'll contract it and give it to elderly relatives or work in medical industry compromised people, then you should also self quarantine. The death rate is already currently down to flu levels, and will likely go way lower once a viable vaccine is developed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by whtviper1
I'd also advise avoiding CNN.
You'd think carts are going around saying - bring out your dead. Its only been 250,000 deaths out of millions of cases. Actually tens of millions of cases given how many people never get any symptom
I mean bummer for the 250,000 but what about the rest of us. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few as my buddy Mr Spock would say
Quote:
Originally Posted by rya96797
It makes zero sense what's going on. It's like pointing at an unfortunate car accident victim, pedestrian victim, etc etc. as reasons why nobody should drive, walk across the street, swim at a beach, etc etc and should stay home and basically not do anything. It's insane. At a certain point, the risks in participating in activities and life outweigh the risk of injury or dying.
If you personally don't feel those risks are acceptable, then you should personally not drive, not eat fast food, not walk across the street, not skydive, etc etc. Everyone makes that choice every day, with such a low covid death rate, their choice shouldn't be imposed on others.
Are you intentionally avoiding the point I made?
I didn’t say or suggest anything about saving everyone from other diseases. In fact, I didn’t say anything about being concerned / afraid of Covid for myself.
I made a simple negation of your false equivalency.
Personally, I am not afraid for myself. That’s not the point. If you want to argue the relative values of deaths vs economic damages - I take no real issue. Haven’t engaged in that debate other than to point out that a healthy economy relies on a healthy consumer and worker population.
Whether restrictions should or should not be imposed is also not in my challenge to your argument.
My challenge is limited to your using a false equivalency. I am picking at your flawed debate logic.
It makes zero sense what's going on. It's like pointing at an unfortunate car accident victim, pedestrian victim, etc etc. as reasons why nobody should drive, walk across the street, swim at a beach, etc etc and should stay home and basically not do anything. It's insane. At a certain point, the risks in participating in activities and life outweigh the risk of injury or dying.
If you personally don't feel those risks are acceptable, then you should personally not drive, not eat fast food, not walk across the street, not skydive, etc etc. Everyone makes that choice every day, with such a low covid death rate, their choice shouldn't be imposed on others.
I am repeating this quote to emphasize that what you are saying is a perfect example of my point: all the activities you mention as having risks can be individually moderated for risk tolerance. But daily living also engages many exposures that are difficult to avoid, and some pretty nearly impossible to avoid.
So the debate really should focus on how to manage the unavoidable risk exposures - or whether there is no reasonable path to avoidance.
Both of you two posters have contributed a very great number of opinions on the subject. Some containing interesting information for consideration. And obviously you, like anyone, are free to continue opining as repetitively as you’d like ... even if you are effectively beating a dead horse in your frustration with the overall situation. Frustration is quite understandable ... and so is venting. But you are lobbing some false equivalencies in the process. It comes across as cavalier disregard at times, which is probably not your intended meaning.
My $0.02 worth of pointing out a flawed component of your argument which isn’t reflecting well on you or your legitimate concerns.
My opinion is you can't throw around death charts like it some major issue without telling the public - oh, by the way - things in our control, like heart disease kill more people - and by the way, a lot more people.
Sweden, which many of the virus-scoffers have pointed to as a model for the rest of the world, is now introducing lockdowns to try to control the huge spike in Covid-19.
Their death rate has reached 10 times that of their neighboring countries.
America has the world's 10th highest rate and Sweden is 12th.
Not really at a national level, just in areas seeing a big surge, and more like recommendations rather than mandatory actions. I guess one could say that curfews are a form of lockdown though. Now that the season has changed for the colder in northern latitudes and more people are moving indoors, it does make sense to take more precautions.
"..And from early September to early October, average daily cases nationwide rose by 173%, with particularly dramatic increases in cities such as Stockholm and Uppsala.
These hard-hit areas are the focus of Sweden’s shifting guidance, according to the Telegraph‘s report. Nojd told the outlet he is considering telling people in Uppsala not to visit the elderly and other vulnerable populations, and to avoid making unnecessary trips on public transportation. He also mentioned the possibility of imposing curfews on restaurants..."
My opinion is you can't throw around death charts like it some major issue without telling the public - oh, by the way - things in our control, like heart disease kill more people - and by the way, a lot more people.
That doesn’t make any sense. You are conflating very different issues. Your attempt at equivalency is a flat out false one.
The absurdity of how humanity tends to gamble with controllable factors is a great topic. But a separate one. And I agree with your observation of the absurdity of how we accept that we gamble our lives and welfare. Logic and debate 101, however, do not mix the two separate functions.
By the way, I haven’t thrown around any death charts ... majorly or minorly. The issue with Covid19 isn’t simply its fatality rate ... it is its burden to the health care system and how it can effect the overall economics of society. The debatable issues include how Covid treatment impacts availability and quality of non-Covid medical care, for example.
By the way, I haven’t thrown around any death charts ... majorly or minorly. The issue with Covid19 isn’t simply its fatality rate ... it is its burden to the health care system and how it can effect the overall economics of society.
We can agree to disagree on the other points.
The fatality rate across all age groups is running about .5%, so about 5 times worse than flu. For most age groups, it is less than flu.
So, lets talk about the health care system. Rather than a near complete shutdown of society for a fatality rate of roughly .5% you:
1) Ramp up rapid tests and practically seal off elderly care facilities. Form elderly care bubbles. We know bubbles work - look at the NBA
2) Ramp up the health care system - build field facilities if necessary. Specific to Hawaii - every island has auditoriums, hotel ballrooms, etc -
3) Deploy the military to assist - have military doctors and nurses and other healthcare professionals assist with the private sector. Engage all national guards - perform rapid training.
etc...
The problem with shutdown is: 40% will never show a symptom, up to 80% for certain age groups - and as we saw with Nick Saban, even old folks get it and never get a symptom.
When we get a vaccine, likely 50% won't get it. Likely only 50-70% effective. This will be with us for years.
So, if it is going to be with us for years - we need alternatives to throwing up our hands and shutting down. Hawaii is the poster child of shutting down - isolating itself - and it still didn't work. It not only didn't work - it didn't work badly.
All Hawaii accomplished is decimating the economy and still ravished by Covid with really nothing to show for it.
The fatality rate across all age groups is running about .5%, so about 5 times worse than flu. For most age groups, it is less than flu.
So, lets talk about the health care system. Rather than a near complete shutdown of society for a fatality rate of roughly .5% you:
1) Ramp up rapid tests and practically seal off elderly care facilities. Form elderly care bubbles. We know bubbles work - look at the NBA
2) Ramp up the health care system - build field facilities if necessary. Specific to Hawaii - every island has auditoriums, hotel ballrooms, etc -
3) Deploy the military to assist - have military doctors and nurses and other healthcare professionals assist with the private sector. Engage all national guards - perform rapid training.
etc...
The problem with shutdown is: 40% will never show a symptom, up to 80% for certain age groups - and as we saw with Nick Saban, even old folks get it and never get a symptom.
When we get a vaccine, likely 50% won't get it. Likely only 50-70% effective. This will be with us for years.
So, if it is going to be with us for years - we need alternatives to throwing up our hands and shutting down. Hawaii is the poster child of shutting down - isolating itself - and it still didn't work. It not only didn't work - it didn't work badly.
All Hawaii accomplished is decimating the economy and still ravished by Covid with really nothing to show for it.
Not sure if you feel I have argued for shutting down the economy or against any of your suggestions. I haven’t. And the reason I haven’t is because I don’t feel qualified to propose plans so critical and complex in considerations.
I will, however, point out that we don’t really know what if anything we have accomplished ... because we don’t know what would have happened had there been no shutdown. If, for instance, Hawaii had become a superspreader hotspot, aside from deaths and overwhelmed treatment venues, probably most tourism would have slowed to a trickle anyway. Not saying that would have happened. Just saying it’s all guessing at this point.
Personally, I tend toward guessing that extreme initial response is the smart protocol. Complete regional lockdowns for short durations such as a month or so. And then ongoing targeting. Too late now. Oh well.
What’s being done all across the US does appear to be pretty worthless the longer the ‘whack-a-mole’ approach prolongs this mess. And the ridiculous entitlement mentality of our culture is on full display.
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