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You may be a physician, but your views about medicine and vaccines are not mainstream views. I would appreciate you at least admitting that.
I find it sad that someone who went to medical school and completed a medical residency would have such negative views about a system that has been extraordinarily effective in developing methods of preventing diseases that are responsible for substantial morbidity and mortality in this world.
You're right. Retired, I now have the luxury of honest scientific analysis. I no longer have to worry about malpractice or Big Brother coming after my license for not following The Rules (the real reason BO- care mandated only computerized records for all-- easy monitoring of physicians to control them.).
As far as the benefits of modern medicine, you give it more credit than it deserves. Widespread use of indoor plumbing caused a sudden rise in LE from 25 yrs to 50 yrs over the course of two decades. The antibiotic age increased it to 65 yrs and it's only inchd up slowly thereafter-- more due to improved childhood death rate thanks to improved nutrition and the natural course of viruses to evolve to less viral forms over time. Death rates fom childhood viruses were going down long before vaccines bcame available. Those are the primary forces behind improving mandkind's health, not some miracle cure for a rare disease that only kills one in a million.....Most pills only improve your chances, they don't eliminate them, nor do they "keep you alive."
Again. I'm not saying you shouldn't get vaxxed, only that some vaxes are worth it, others have borderline risk/benefit profiles and still others have dubious benefit. (Eg- a cholera vax is available....should BigBrother mandate that we all get it?)
"Just go along, George. Just go along."--- Jerry Seinfeld in "The Soup Nazi" episode.
Every childhood vaccine is safer than getting the disease. Mortality is not the only consideration. For example, measles damages the immune system, causing a form of immune amnesia. This means loss of protection against previous infections.
CNS complications of measles can be severe, including primary measles encephalitis, acute postinfectious measles encephalomyelitis, measles inclusion body encephalitis, and subacute sclerosing panencephalitis (SSPE).
CNS complications can produce permanent disability. SSPE is always fatal.
Did your children get two doses of MMR or just one? One dose is about 95% effective, two hits 99%. Considering that measles has been eliminated in the US due to a high vaccination rate and herd immunity, having two family members get measles as adults would be highly unusual. What year was that?
Do you not advocate vaccination against diphtheria? Tetanus? Pertussis? Meningococcal meningitis? Pneumococcus?
Maybe the population is growing weaker due to lack of physical exercise and poor diets, but in the 1960s, everyone got those viruses, and we never heard of the severe side effects like we do today, and also autism didn't really seem to be a "thing" like it is today.
I had German measles (Ruebella), mumps, chicken pox, a variety of stomach ills, colds, etc. and at 69, here I am, medication free, and darn healthy for my age. I am watching the obits to 3 cities where I have lived and known people. I see more people younger than 50 dying than those my age and older.
Everyone should do their own research before getting a vaccine or getting them for their children. Since the CDC is "in bed" with Big Pharma, as is the FDA, beware that money talks!
"Since the CDC Foundation was created in 1995, hundreds of corporations have contributed to public health programs, for a total of $161 million in donations. Many of these contributions could be seen as conflicts of interest–for example, a $193,000 donation from Roche, the maker of antiviral drug Tamiflu, to fund a CDC flu prevention campaign."
The issue I see is replacing the job your immune system should be doing with chemicals, and thinking "use it or lose it". Do your own research for best results, and you might have to dig for the info online, but it is there for the taking!
They will deny, deny, deny and continue to reap HUGE profits!
I am fully vaccinated, with boosters. All I know is when I got the 2nd shot I started having upper arm, shoulder pain. I was working then, so thought it may be that. I retired 2 years ago and the pain has gotten no better. It feels like I am pulling muscles all the time. I talked to the doctor about this and of course, vaccines have nothing to do with it.
I talked to a neighbor the other day and he has issues too and will not get any more shots. Me too
Maybe the population is growing weaker due to lack of physical exercise and poor diets, but in the 1960s, everyone got those viruses, and we never heard of the severe side effects like we do today, and also autism didn't really seem to be a "thing" like it is today.
I had German measles (Ruebella), mumps, chicken pox, a variety of stomach ills, colds, etc. and at 69, here I am, medication free, and darn healthy for my age. I am watching the obits to 3 cities where I have lived and known people. I see more people younger than 50 dying than those my age and older.
Everyone should do their own research before getting a vaccine or getting them for their children. Since the CDC is "in bed" with Big Pharma, as is the FDA, beware that money talks!
"Since the CDC Foundation was created in 1995, hundreds of corporations have contributed to public health programs, for a total of $161 million in donations. Many of these contributions could be seen as conflicts of interest–for example, a $193,000 donation from Roche, the maker of antiviral drug Tamiflu, to fund a CDC flu prevention campaign."
The issue I see is replacing the job your immune system should be doing with chemicals, and thinking "use it or lose it". Do your own research for best results, and you might have to dig for the info online, but it is there for the taking!
They will deny, deny, deny and continue to reap HUGE profits!
One would have to possess a childlike, unquestioning trust in the pharmaceutical industy and our government, to not have serious concerns about these aggregious conflicts of interests. This goes beyond the general debate about whether vaccines in general have improved health and life expectancy. This type of funding is a blatant red flag that should never have been allowed.
As far as the benefits of modern medicine, you give it more credit than it deserves. Widespread use of indoor plumbing caused a sudden rise in LE from 25 yrs to 50 yrs over the course of two decades. The antibiotic age increased it to 65 yrs and it's only inchd up slowly thereafter-- more due to improved childhood death rate thanks to improved nutrition and the natural course of viruses to evolve to less viral forms over time. Death rates fom childhood viruses were going down long before vaccines bcame available. Those are the primary forces behind improving mandkind's health, not some miracle cure for a rare disease that only kills one in a million.....Most pills only improve your chances, they don't eliminate them, nor do they "keep you alive."
Again. I'm not saying you shouldn't get vaxxed, only that some vaxes are worth it, others have borderline risk/benefit profiles and still others have dubious benefit. (Eg- a cholera vax is available....should BigBrother mandate that we all get it?)
Death rates from childhood infectious diseases dropped due to better medical care but the incidence did not drop until vaccines became available. With measles for example, the vaccine dropped the incidence from endemic virus to zero and resulted in no measles deaths at all. All measles in the US now results from importation from a country where it is still endemic because vaccination rates are too low to achieve herd immunity.
No, the US does not need to mandate the cholera vaccine because the incidence in the US is low. It is bacterial and treatable with antibiotics.
You do not think treating hypertension with pills keeps people alive? How about treating diabetes? My older son was treated for childhood leukemia, diagnosed when he was 13. He is now 48. Without treatment he would have been dead before he was 14.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnywhereElse
Maybe the population is growing weaker due to lack of physical exercise and poor diets, but in the 1960s, everyone got those viruses, and we never heard of the severe side effects like we do today, and also autism didn't really seem to be a "thing" like it is today.
I had German measles (Ruebella), mumps, chicken pox, a variety of stomach ills, colds, etc. and at 69, here I am, medication free, and darn healthy for my age. I am watching the obits to 3 cities where I have lived and known people. I see more people younger than 50 dying than those my age and older.
Everyone should do their own research before getting a vaccine or getting them for their children. Since the CDC is "in bed" with Big Pharma, as is the FDA, beware that money talks!
"Since the CDC Foundation was created in 1995, hundreds of corporations have contributed to public health programs, for a total of $161 million in donations. Many of these contributions could be seen as conflicts of interest–for example, a $193,000 donation from Roche, the maker of antiviral drug Tamiflu, to fund a CDC flu prevention campaign."
The issue I see is replacing the job your immune system should be doing with chemicals, and thinking "use it or lose it". Do your own research for best results, and you might have to dig for the info online, but it is there for the taking!
They will deny, deny, deny and continue to reap HUGE profits!
You may be happy and healthy. Cemeteries contain millions of people who died from vaccine preventable infections, mostly in childhood. That does not even consider those left with permanent disabilities.
Who should bear the cost of evaluating new drugs? The taxpayers?
Do you not realize that preventing flu would actually reduce Tamiflu sales?
Your immune system can kill you if you get some viral infections, including covid.
I am fully vaccinated, with boosters. All I know is when I got the 2nd shot I started having upper arm, shoulder pain. I was working then, so thought it may be that. I retired 2 years ago and the pain has gotten no better. It feels like I am pulling muscles all the time. I talked to the doctor about this and of course, vaccines have nothing to do with it.
I talked to a neighbor the other day and he has issues too and will not get any more shots. Me too
You may have an injury due to the location of the injection, not the vaccine itself.
Suzi-- you're trying to argue against general principles with isolated exceptions...and not always accurate but taken out of context...Eg- measles deaths were huge in the 19th century and rates fell naturally over the next 100 yrs prior to the vax. The vax just lowered it a little more.... If you lower an already low rate, is it worth it? That's a value judgement....As I said-- clnical decisions should be made on an individual basis...
Mandated cholera vax would be silly in the US where cholera is almost non-existant, but a wise choice for a relief worker about to travel to Malaysia after a sunami disaster.
Vaxs are a wise choice when risk of exposure is high, risk of complicated illness is high and risk of vax side effects is low.,..The problem comes in defining high and low.....Those with an agenda may have different definitions than we of the proletariate.
Suzi-- you're trying to argue against general principles with isolated exceptions...and not always accurate but taken out of context...Eg- measles deaths were huge in the 19th century and rates fell naturally over the next 100 yrs prior to the vax. The vax just lowered it a little more.... If you lower an already low rate, is it worth it? That's a value judgement....As I said-- clnical decisions should be made on an individual basis...
Mandated cholera vax would be silly in the US where cholera is almost non-existant, but a wise choice for a relief worker about to travel to Malaysia after a sunami disaster.
Vaxs are a wise choice when risk of exposure is high, risk of complicated illness is high and risk of vax side effects is low.,..The problem comes in defining high and low.....Those with an agenda may have different definitions than we of the proletariate.
Five hundred measles deaths per year add up over time. Just since 2000, when measles was declared eliminated in the US, that is about 12,000 lives saved in the US alone.
High measles vaccination rates are essential to prevent imported cases from causing large epidemics and possibly having the virus become endemic here again. The 2019 NY epidemic in almost did that. The outbreak in Samoa in 2019 killed 83, mostly children, in a severely under vaccinated population.
Just looking at deaths does not give the full picture. You have to consider morbidity, too, including hospitalizations and long term sequelae.
It has been known that after measles vaccine is introduced into a previously unvaccinated population, overall mortality from infectious diseases goes down. Now this is known to be due to effects of the virus on the immune system which erase immune memory for diseases the person previously had.
"Clinicians and epidemiologists have long known that measles infection increases childhood morbidity and mortality for as long as 5 years after illness, and measles in the pre-vaccination era was likely associated with at least half of all childhood deaths from infectious diseases."
'In a normal, healthy vaccinated person, we can expected a 5% to 10% drop in antibodies over time,' Mina told CIDRAP News.
After severe measles, children lost a median of 40% (range, 11% to 62%), and after mild measles they lost 33% (range, 12% to 73%), of their total preexisting pathogen-specific antibody repertoires. Paired, healthy controls retained approximately 90% of their repertoires over similar or longer durations."
Individual decisions not to vaccinate against measles affect the entire community.
Suzi-- you're trying to argue against general principles with isolated exceptions...and not always accurate but taken out of context...Eg- measles deaths were huge in the 19th century and rates fell naturally over the next 100 yrs prior to the vax. The vax just lowered it a little more.... If you lower an already low rate, is it worth it? That's a value judgement....As I said-- clnical decisions should be made on an individual basis...
Mandated cholera vax would be silly in the US where cholera is almost non-existant, but a wise choice for a relief worker about to travel to Malaysia after a sunami disaster.
Vaxs are a wise choice when risk of exposure is high, risk of complicated illness is high and risk of vax side effects is low.,..The problem comes in defining high and low.....Those with an agenda may have different definitions than we of the proletariate.
Even a "minor disease" like chickenpox can have many implications for the medical system. Prior to introduction of the vaccine in the 1990's the disease killed about 150 children every year. It lead to over 10,000 hospitalizations every year. The economic cost of the disease was in the billions of dollars in terms of medical expenses. Wides spread use of the vaccine has cut most of these problems by 90%. Over a 25 year period over $23 billion has been saved due to the use of the vaccine.
mRNA technology is new for human use. Long term effects are unknown. Whether the old vaccines are being primed for mRNA formulations I do not know.
My choice is to avoid medical institutions as often as possible.
You sound like you are Amish.
Quotes
"The horse is here to stay, but the automobile is only a novelty — a fad.”
The horse is here to stay. Good strong, serviceable horses will be in demand at fair prices, despite all competition of bikes and trolley cars. Those who recognize this fact and breed from heavy sires will make fair profit in the years to come.
A London writer calls it “a fad, and an extremely dirty, dusty, uncomfortable fad,” and a nuisance on the public ways. He thinks it will be many years before “these crude, impracticable machines” displace in the Englishman’s affections “a fine trotting-horse and a smart trap.” No doubt the horse is here to stay, and no doubt the automobile is still in its clumsy beginning; but just wait a little, till the problem of a light and cheap storage-battery has been solved.
For milk and kindred deliveries the automobile is a poor substitute for the horse. For long hauls on good pavement with light or heavy loads the gas wagon has already superseded the horse, though not by reason of its greater economy of operation. For short hauls or trips in which many stops must be made the gas wagon can never displace the horse.
Another thing—the amount of gasoline available will limit absolutely the number of self-propelled gas wagons that can be used.
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