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I'm a little confused with the wording here. Is your statement meant to say that the Nazi's were "fascists" or "socialists".
I see the problem:
From a historical perspective, in the case of Mr. Hitler, there is no dismissing the fact that while not absolute, the conservative institutions of Germany, from the Church to industry sided with the Nazi Party and not the Communist Party of Germany (KDP) or the Social Democrats. And while the National Socialist German "Workers' Party" wrapped itself in the facade of "socialism", it was nothing other than a right wing reactionary movement within Germany i.e., fascism.
Sorry about that.
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This is very true and the concept/definition of socialism has changed over time.
No, the definition of socialism hasn't change just its misappropriation.
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However, in the realm of this discussion in order for it to be of value we need a definition of socialism that we can agree upon in this context. My offered definition was...
Well there is the problem, because nowhere in the writings of Marx or Engels do they advocate in favor of state ownership of production quite the contrary. Marx and Engels believed that socialism and ultimately communism would do away with the state altogether. If state ownership was the goal of Marxist socialist (leaving out other theorist like Mikhail Bukunin, or Ferdinand Lassale) as Engels put it then, "Certainly, if the taking over by the state of the tobacco industry is socialistic, then Napoleon and Metternich must be numbered among the founders of socialism." Even Lenin in 1921 returned to orthodox Marxism when he decreed the end of state ownership of all agricultural and industrial enterprises aside from specific major national industries like the railroads.
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These conversations are all about definition and context, PoliSci 101. If we can agree on the definition and context we can then discuss the details and show how different ideologies fit into our definition.
I agree and if I can find the time I might start a thread on the history of socialism, which I would argue even under a orthodox Marxian definition is the original and oldest existing economic system.
Ovcatto,The fact that conservatives saw Nazis as a tool to stop socialist movements does not mean Nazis themselves were conservatives and or 'right'.
If you say so.
Earlier you spoke of conservatives promoting and protecting "traditional values". If I had the time to list all of the "traditional" values of the German people that were part and parcel of Nazi ideology I would ask you to reconcile the two. But I don't. At least not tonight.
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In my mind both Socialists and National-Socialist had similar social ideas, rejecting traditional marriage and class system and similar ideas on economy which is nationalization and industry serving a greater good, coincidentally both in case of Germany and Russia, this greater good happaned to be world domination.
There are just too many historical inaccuracies in your statement to address so let's just take a couple:
1. Compare and contrast marriage in the Soviet Union, Nazi Germany with marriage in the Western democracies.
2. Compare the "class system" in the United States (where I am told classes don't exist to begin with) with the class system that existed in pre-revolutionary Russia.
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PS. Ovcatto when you use terminology like "reactionary movement" it resembles of what Russian Communists would call anybody who would not agree with them, including Mensheviks, Zinovyevs and many others. The word is meaningless.
Hardly.
PPS: And no, German churches did not stand behind Hitler and the Nazis, the way Catholic church stood behind Franco, a true conservative.[/quote]
So your argument is about the quality of support not the fact that they did.
Well there is the problem, because nowhere in the writings of Marx or Engels do they advocate in favor of state ownership of production quite the contrary. Marx and Engels believed that socialism and ultimately communism would do away with the state altogether. If state ownership was the goal of Marxist socialist (leaving out other theorist like Mikhail Bukunin, or Ferdinand Lassale) as Engels put it then, "Certainly, if the taking over by the state of the tobacco industry is socialistic, then Napoleon and Metternich must be numbered among the founders of socialism." Even Lenin in 1921 returned to orthodox Marxism when he decreed the end of state ownership of all agricultural and industrial enterprises aside from specific major national industries like the railroads.
Nobody said that a statism was an objective of Marxism, there are those however who argue that statism as a phase in developemnt between capitalist society and truly communist state.
Let's not forget that Marxism is an utopia with no practical implementation while Soviet Union was an actual country implementing at least the basics or this Utopia, but it also had to deal with real-life problems of any real state.
Nobody said that a statism was an objective of Marxism, there are those however who argue that statism as a phase in developemnt between capitalist society and truly communist state.
Statism or stasis, either way your point is?
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Let's not forget that Marxism is an utopia with no practical implementation while Soviet Union was an actual country implementing at least the basics or this Utopia, but it also had to deal with real-life problems of any real state.
Who knows what "utopian" economic system will emerge in the future? But one thing I do know is that resources and markets are not infinite and either way, at the rate that technology exponentially replaces the need for human labor, something is going to have to give.
But as you have pointe out this is a discussion about the Nazis vs the Soviets.
My point was that Soviet Union is as good example of implemented socialism as any other. Especially as there are no others. I assume that Soviet, Cuban, Chinese, Kambodian model is the only real model of socialism and when compared to Nasi Germany differences between these states were purely cosmetic and propagandist.
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Originally Posted by NJGOAT
Who knows what "utopian" economic system will emerge in the future?
So far no real alternative to free market economy has been discovered so I assume none will ever be.
Earlier you spoke of conservatives promoting and protecting "traditional values". If I had the time to list all of the "traditional" values of the German people that were part and parcel of Nazi ideology I would ask you to reconcile the two. But I don't. At least not tonight.
I haven't seen any. Nazis rejected religion, democracy, free market economy, family and all other conservative values.
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Originally Posted by ovcatto
There are just too many historical inaccuracies in your statement to address so let's just take a couple:
1. Compare and contrast marriage in the Soviet Union, Nazi Germany with marriage in the Western democracies.
Are you asking me to do it?
What did lebrnsborn have to do with traditional family and marriage? What are western democracies? Were then any others?
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Originally Posted by ovcatto
2. Compare the "class system" in the United States (where I am told classes don't exist to begin with) with the class system that existed in pre-revolutionary Russia.
Classes do exist in the us and they did exist in Soviet union.
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Originally Posted by ovcatto
So your argument is about the quality of support not the fact that they did.
No Nazis simply rejected religion just like socialists in Soviet union.
SS troops were not encouraged to go to church
I haven't seen any. Nazis rejected religion, democracy, free market economy, family and all other conservative values.
Religion: No the Nazis didn't reject religion, they rejected contemporary Christianity. The Nazi party was intent on transforming traditional Christianity into a Christianity that combined their beliefs of racial purity with Christianity into what they referred to as Positive Christianity.
Free market economy: analysis of the German economy is far more complex than the overly simplistic "they opposed free markets" a statement which is only partially true and another sense patently false.
The family: This is the most absurd assertion since nothing was more dear to the heart of the Nazi regime than family as the source for propagation of the "aryan race" (see Joseph Goebbels).
Conservative values: virulently anti-homosexual, nationalistic what values would those be?
You continue to make these assertions without a hint of substantiation or exposition. Need I remind you that this is the history forum where is it custom to post substantiation and not check the box talking points?
My point was that Soviet Union is as good example of implemented socialism as any other.
I, like many others, would argue that there was nothing socialistic about Stalin's Russia, in theory or in practice.
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I assume that Soviet, Cuban, Chinese, Kambodian model is the only real model of socialism and when compared to Nasi Germany differences between these states were purely cosmetic and propagandist.
That is the problem with assumptions. The Stalinist model, as it was practiced in the Soviet Union and subsequently in China, Cuba or
So far no real alternative to free market economy has been discovered so I assume none will ever be.[/quote]
Religion: No the Nazis didn't reject religion, they rejected contemporary Christianity.
Christianity was a religion of 95% of Germans. By rejecting Christianity Nazis rejected religion. There were no chaplains in SS.
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Originally Posted by ovcatto
The Nazi party was intent on transforming traditional Christianity into a Christianity that combined their beliefs of racial purity with Christianity into what they referred to as Positive Christianity.
Maybe this was the intent however I am not aware of a single Positivie Christianity church in Germany. The intent never materialized into reality. (*2) You can't have Christianity without Jewish roots as Hitler intended.
Your point is moot.
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Originally Posted by ovcatto
Free market economy: analysis of the German economy is far more complex than the overly simplistic "they opposed free markets" a statement which is only partially true and another sense patently false.
That's just your unsubstantiated by any evidence opinion. I don't see any reasoning on your part and no evidence.
Of course Nazis were against free market economy, they nationalised major corporations and had absolute control over economy. (*3). That's not a conservative value, that's not free market economy.
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Originally Posted by ovcatto
The family: This is the most absurd assertion since nothing was more dear to the heart of the Nazi regime than family as the source for propagation of the "aryan race" (see Joseph Goebbels).
Have you ever heard about Lebensborn? (*1) No?
Lebensborn arranged for single German women to have sex with random SS officers to give birth to racially pure German children. How does this fit into Christian, conservative tradition of marriage and family?
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Originally Posted by ovcatto
Conservative values: virulently anti-homosexual, nationalistic what values would those be?
Virulently anti-homosexual? Laughable argument. In 1930' all political movements were virulently anti-homosexual, including the Socialists. It's not like Lenin's Soviet Union was some gay bonanza, was it? Gays were simply sent to Gulags for "resocialization".
If you don't know conservatie traditions they incorporate: personal freedoms, free market economy... Did Nazis try to incorporate any of them into their policies? Of course not.
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Originally Posted by ovcatto
You continue to make these assertions without a hint of substantiation or exposition. Need I remind you that this is the history forum where is it custom to post substantiation and not check the box talking points?
Ironically this is exactly what how I feel about your posts.
(1)I suggest you read about Lebensborn:
And only then try to prove to me that Nazis were a conservative movement, based on such conservative tenets as personal liberties or free market economy. Until then I will consider them just another face of socialism.
Earlier you spoke of conservatives promoting and protecting "traditional values". If I had the time to list all of the "traditional" values of the German people that were part and parcel of Nazi ideology I would ask you to reconcile the two. But I don't. At least not tonight.
There are just too many historical inaccuracies in your statement to address so let's just take a couple:
1. Compare and contrast marriage in the Soviet Union, Nazi Germany with marriage in the Western democracies.
Ha-ha, thanks.
Of course if you are looking at the INITIAL Hitler's stand on family values and women's place in society, with its picture of "beautiful blond" devoted to three famous German "K"s - Kinder, Kuche, Kirche, ( children, kitchen, church,) - i.e. when you scratch the surface, you'll recognize good ole conservative right-wing values. All these "lebensborn" programs and "socialist" sticks in economy were nothing but a spin put on these values, when conservative society came up with a new "advanced" idea - meaning nationalism. ( After all eugenics have been known to conservative American society as well, isn't it?)
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2. Compare the "class system" in the United States (where I am told classes don't exist to begin with) with the class system that existed in pre-revolutionary Russia.
Not sure what it is all about...
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Nazis simply rejected religion just like socialists in Soviet union.
