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Ha-ha, thanks.
Of course if you are looking at the INITIAL Hitler's stand on family values and women's place in society, with its picture of "beautiful blond" devoted to three famous German "K"s - Kinder, Kuche, Kirche, ( children, kitchen, church,) - i.e. when you scratch the surface, you'll recognize good ole conservative right-wing values. All these "lebensborn" programs and "socialist" sticks in economy were nothing but a spin put on these values,
Lebensborn, repressions against German churches and nationalisation of industry was just a spin? Interesting.
I think there more of a indication where Hitler really wanted to take German race.
The future of German society was the SS and if you look closely at this organization you'll see how far from conservative values it realty was.
Christianity was a religion of 95% of Germans. By rejecting Christianity Nazis rejected religion.
Then why did Hitler make references to God on numerous ( public) occasions?
No, by rejecting Christianity Nazis didn't reject religion - they've rejected Christianity, because the central figure in this particular religion with his teachings didn't fit Nazi's purpose; Hitler was dreaming to be a new messiah himself, hoping that God was on his side, lol ( sort of like Bush was hoping for the same, although he didn't have the "messiah complex" of course..)))
Now Soviets while rejecting Chrisitianity rejected religion all together for real, with no reference to God and offered Jews their own republic instead of them looking for that "promised land."
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That's just your unsubstantiated by any evidence opinion. I don't see any reasoning on your part and no evidence.
Of course Nazis were against free market economy, they nationalised major corporations and had absolute control over economy. (*3). That's not a conservative value, that's not free market economy.
The reason they nationalized major corporations, is because "free market economy" is open to opportunity of serving the interests of the upper class only, not particular German nation as a whole ( once it has been sufficiently "cleansed and purged,") which would not meet the goals of the Nationalist state. As long as the corporate elite was ready to serve Nazi interests, they were left in place.
Now in the Soviet Union the private ownership was abolished all together, in order to remove capitalists as a class.
Big difference here, between the socialists ideas and simple "tweaking" and "adjusting" of the right-wing ideas according to the current needs.
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Virulently anti-homosexual? Laughable argument. In 1930' all political movements were virulently anti-homosexual, including the Socialists. It's not like Lenin's Soviet Union was some gay bonanza, was it? Gays were simply sent to Gulags for "resocialization".
Ha-ha, in modern "free and capitalist" Russia homosexuals are hated all the same, so the intolerant attitude toward gays is far more persistent in Russian culture than in the West overall.
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And only then try to prove to me that Nazis were a conservative movement, based on such conservative tenets as personal liberties or free market economy. Until then I will consider them just another face of socialism.
You can consider them whatever you like, but "another face of socialism" they are not.
Another ( but still recognizable) face of conservatism - that's for sure.
Christianity was a religion of 95% of Germans. By rejecting Christianity Nazis rejected religion. There were no chaplains in SS.
That's like arguing that Martin Luther rejected Christianity because he rejected the Pope. Come on, if you can't do better than this I'll just have to pass on any further comments.
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Of course Nazis were against free market economy, they nationalised major corporations and had absolute control over economy. (*3). That's not a conservative value, that's not free market economy.
Read it and weep.
The Great Depression spurred State ownership in Western capitalist countries. Germany was no
exception; the last governments of the Weimar Republic took over firms in diverse sectors. Later,
the Nazi regime transferred public ownership and public services to the private sector. In doing
so, they went against the mainstream trends in the Western capitalist countries, none of which
systematically reprivatized firms during the 1930s. Privatization in Nazi Germany was also
unique in transferring to private hands the delivery of public services previously provided by
government. The firms and the services transferred to private ownership belonged to diverse
sectors. Privatization was part of an intentional policy with multiple objectives and was not
ideologically driven. As in many recent privatizations, particularly within the European Union,
strong financial restrictions were a central motivation. In addition, privatization was used as a
political tool to enhance support for the government and for the Nazi Party
In the end, however, the Lebensborn program was never promoted aggressively. Instead, Nazi population policy concentrated on the family and marriage. The state encouraged matrimony through marriage loans, dispensed family income supplements for each new child, publicly honored "child-rich" families, bestowed the Cross of Honor of the German Mother on women bearing four or more babies, and increased punishments for abortion.
Historians have refuted the public’s perception that it was a system of Nazi stud farms where SS zealots mated with each other. But it was an integral part of a murderous racial policy that stretched from the forced sterilization of people with hereditary diseases to the killing of 6 million Jews.
Founded in 1935, Lebensborn was designed to halt the high rate of abortions in Germany which rose as high as 800,000 a year in the inter-war years because of a chronic shortage of men to marry after World War I. Its aim was to prevent 100,000 abortions and its statute stated that it was to support "racially and genetically valuable families with many children."
It enabled unmarried pregnant women to avoid social stigma by giving birth anonymously away from their homes, often under the pretext of needing a long-term recuperation. About 60 percent of Lebensborn mothers were unmarried. Lebensborn ran children’s homes and an adoption service if the mother didn’t want to keep the child.
Virulently anti-homosexual? Laughable argument. In 1930' all political movements were virulently anti-homosexual, including the Socialists. It's not like Lenin's Soviet Union was some gay bonanza, was it? Gays were simply sent to Gulags for "resocialization".
This what is described as classic red herring.
If you don't know conservatie traditions they incorporate: personal freedoms, free market economy... Did Nazis try to incorporate any of them into their policies? Of course not.
Lebensborn, repressions against German churches and nationalisation of industry was just a spin? Interesting.
Yes, it was just a spin. Think about it in these terms; in Anglo-Saxon society where the conservative ideas rule, Christianity ( that teaches patience and tolerance to everything that "intervenes" with the "right order" of things) serves as the counter-balance to the most crushing and brutal ideas; it teaches the acceptance of the imperfections of this world. Now Hitler took it a step ahead; he decided to "fix" these imperfections on his own ( hence the eradication of mentally ill, the forced sterilizations, the mass killings of Jews and Gypsies, not to mention his hatred towards Blacks.) That's why Christianity has been removed from the equation; his ideas were based on the belief that European Whites were this ultimate positive force in the world, which would have a great future, if not hindered by imperfections and interferences of the "undesirables."
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I think there more of a indication where Hitler really wanted to take German race.
The future of German society was the SS and if you look closely at this organization you'll see how far from conservative values it realty was.
SS was just an instrument in achieving Hitler's goals - not more and not less.
The brutality of police and suppression of workers' rights were traditionally the tools of "conservatives" as well; Hitler simply took it all to the new heights - that's all to it.
Then why did Hitler make references to God on numerous ( public) occasions?
No, by rejecting Christianity Nazis didn't reject religion - they've rejected Christianity, because the central figure in this particular religion with his teachings didn't fit Nazi's purpose; Hitler was dreaming to be a new messiah himself, hoping that God was on his side, lol ( sort of like Bush was hoping for the same, although he didn't have the "messiah complex" of course..)))
Nah. Nazis rejected religion altogether. Of course in Christian Germany they had to make some moves to appeal to 90% of population yet in Nazi engineered society there was no place for religion. SS troops did not have chaplains and were discouraged from going to church.
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Originally Posted by erasure
Now Soviets while rejecting Chrisitianity rejected religion all together for real, with no reference to God and offered Jews their own republic instead of them looking for that "promised land."
Yet cult of individual had so much to do with religion. Portraits of Stalin, his carefully crafted legend of a wise leader and a saviour of the nation certainly had some religious overtones. Socialists in Russia simply created their own religion.
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Originally Posted by erasure
The reason they nationalized major corporations, is because "free market economy" is open to opportunity of serving the interests of the upper class only, not particular German nation as a whole ( once it has been sufficiently "cleansed and purged,") which would not meet the goals of the Nationalist state. As long as the corporate elite was ready to serve Nazi interests, they were left in place.
Now in the Soviet Union the private ownership was abolished all together, in order to remove capitalists as a class.
Big difference here, between the socialists ideas and simple "tweaking" and "adjusting" of the right-wing ideas according to the current needs.
Both Hitler and Lenin nationalized the industry which is similar to socialist theory and far away from conservative one, which values private property and individual's right to possess. What were their real motives, we will never know. Nationalization of industry is a fact, everything else is speculation.
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Originally Posted by erasure
You can consider them whatever you like, but "another face of socialism" they are not.
Another ( but still recognizable) face of conservatism - that's for sure.
So similarities between social and economic policies of Soviet Union and Nazi Germany are just a coincidence?
How could Nazis be another face of conservatism if they praised superiority of interests of the "the race" just like Soviet praised superiority of interest of the class over interests if individuals while conservatives value individual rights, private property and religion as a moral guidance?
Neither Lenin nor Hitler subcribed to any of ideals of conservatism. Both were Socialists not conservatives.
Yes, it was just a spin. Think about it in these terms; in Anglo-Saxon society where the conservative ideas rule, Christianity ( that teaches patience and tolerance to everything that "intervenes" with the "right order" of things) serves as the counter-balance to the most crushing and brutal ideas; it teaches the acceptance of the imperfections of this world. Now Hitler took it a step ahead; he decided to "fix" these imperfections on his own ( hence the eradication of mentally ill, the forced sterilizations, the mass killings of Jews and Gypsies, not to mention his hatred towards Blacks.)
Yes he took it where all Socialists invariably take societies: to rejection of the old order and establishing a new order of social relations, far away from traditional Christian and conservative teachings. Hitler was not any different from Lenin. Both and in vary similar ways took it "one step further" in an attempt to rid society of its ills.
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Originally Posted by erasure
SS was just an instrument in achieving Hitler's goals - not more and not less.
Absolutely not. The SS was much more than just a tool, it was a carefully selected and educated elite of Germany, they were the avant garde of Germany, the new ruling class and the future of Germany.
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Originally Posted by erasure
The brutality of police and suppression of workers' rights were traditionally the tools of "conservatives" as well; Hitler simply took it all
And how was he different from Lenin and Stalin?
There were not many countries more opressive towards the rights of workers than Soviet Russia.
Nah. Nazis rejected religion altogether. Of course in Christian Germany they had to make some moves to appeal to 90% of population yet in Nazi engineered society there was no place for religion.
You think so? Then google "Hitler's view on God" and there you have it;
"For a time Hitler advocated positive Christianity, a militant, non-denominational form of Christianity which emphasized Christ as an active preacher, organizer, and fighter who opposed the institutionalized Judaism of his day.[46] Positive Christianity purged or deemphasized the Jewish aspects of Christianity and was infused with aspects of nationalism and racial antisemitism. Hitler never directed his attacks on Jesus himself,[47] whom Hitler regarded as an Aryan opponent of the Jews.[48] Hitler viewed traditional Christianity as a corruption of the original ideas of Jesus by the Apostle Paul.[49] In Mein Kampf Hitler writes that Jesus "made no secret of his attitude toward the Jewish people, and when necessary he even took the whip to drive from the temple of the Lord this adversary of all humanity, who then as always saw in religion nothing but an instrument for his business existence. In return, Christ was nailed to the cross."[50] In a speech 26 June 1934, Hitler stated:
The National Socialist State professes its allegiance to positive Christianity. It will be its honest endeavour to protect both the great Christian Confessions in their rights, to secure them from interference with their doctrines (Lehren), and in their duties to constitute a harmony with the views and the exigencies of the State of today.[51]"
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Yet cult of individual had so much to do with religion. Portraits of Stalin, his carefully crafted legend of a wise leader and a saviour of the nation certainly had some religious overtones. Socialists in Russia simply created their own religion.
It happened only because Russians needed to replace the void of religion after the 700+ years of Christianity, but the concept of "God" has been totally scratched out, which was obviously not a case in Hitler's Germany.
PS. Stalin "studying theology" has got nothing to do with it; he was a person who really had no interest in religion for quite some time after he has dropped out from the seminary, until the biblical events of the WWII made him change his mind.
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Both Hitler and Lenin nationalized the industry which is similar to socialist theory and far away from conservative one, which values private property and individual's right to possess.
They've "nationalized it" in a very different way; the fact that Capitalist countries ( conservative America first of all) had no particular qualms about dealing with German corporations while officially cutting off ties with Communist Russia says it all; they knew the difference right away, didn't they?
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So similarities between social and economic policies of Soviet Union and Nazi Germany are just a coincidence?
List these similarities please, let's go over them one by one...
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How could Nazis be another face of conservatism if they praised superiority of interests of the "the race" just like Soviet praised superiority of interest of the class over interests if individuals?
But Nazis never cancelled the idea of private ownership all together, ( which is so dear to conservatives' heart,) even in the name of the "race" interests, where Soviets sure did.
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Conservatives value individual rights, private property and religion as a moral guidance.
First of all conservatives value "individual rights" as long as these individual rights do not interfere with their own interests, ( should I remind of Maccartism for example?,) the idea of private property hasn't been abolished in Hitlers' Germany ( just somewhat limited,) so the only REAL difference that lies between the Conservatives and Hitler's Germany is Christianity as I've already mentioned before.
Remove Christianity in conventional sense of it from the picture and there you have it.
"For a time Hitler advocated positive Christianity, a militant, non-denominational form of Christianity which emphasized Christ as an active preacher, organizer, and fighter who opposed the institutionalized Judaism of his day.[46] Positive Christianity purged or deemphasized the Jewish aspects of Christianity and was infused with aspects of nationalism and racial antisemitism. Hitler never directed his attacks on Jesus himself,[47] whom Hitler regarded as an Aryan opponent of the Jews.[48] Hitler viewed traditional Christianity as a corruption of the original ideas of Jesus by the Apostle Paul.[49] In Mein Kampf Hitler writes that Jesus "made no secret of his attitude toward the Jewish people, and when necessary he even took the whip to drive from the temple of the Lord this adversary of all humanity, who then as always saw in religion nothing but an instrument for his business existence. In return, Christ was nailed to the cross."[50] In a speech 26 June 1934, Hitler stated:
The National Socialist State professes its allegiance to positive Christianity. It will be its honest endeavour to protect both the great Christian Confessions in their rights, to secure them from interference with their doctrines (Lehren), and in their duties to constitute a harmony with the views and the exigencies of the State of today.[51] [i]"
First of all I have seen many works on Nazis and spritituality.
Second even Hitler's speeches do not reflect widespread persecutions of Christians in Third Reich. Hitler speeches were just a propaganda aimed to pacify German Christians uneasy about cooperating with a regime rejecting the most basic teachings of their faith. After all Catholic Church forbade its faithful from voting for Hitler.
Third: Hitler's Positive Christianity had nothing to do with Christianity.
Fourth: Hitler hasn't been in church since he was in his teen years.
Last but not least, if you picture Gestapo buildings with Christian crosses on the wals you'd be dissapointed. If you pictured Waffen-SS troops lining up for Holy Communion in chrches you'd be disssapointed even more. That did not happen. Ever.
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Originally Posted by erasure
It happened only because Russians needed to replace the void of religion after the 700+ years of Christianity, but the concept of "God" has been totally scratched out, which was obviously not a case in Hitler's Germany.
If you think of Nazis as a Christian movement - think again.
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Originally Posted by erasure
They've "nationalized it" in a very different way; the fact that Capitalist countries ( conservative America first of all) had no particular qualms about dealing with German corporations while officially cutting off ties with Communist Russia says it all; they knew the difference right away, didn't they?
You walking on clouds while grasping for straws here.
First of all Soviet Russia came to existance as a result of bloody revolution and declined to honor any financial obligations of the Russian Empire while Hitler gained power via a democratic process and continuty of the state has not been lost. That's why Nazi Germany was treated differently than Soviet Union. Also, Soviet Russia initially tried to flirt with industrialists and business owners as well, through so called NEP.
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Originally Posted by erasure
List these similarities please, let's go over them one by one...
Similarities between Soviet Union and Nazi Germany? Too many to list here. First of all when Hitler got to power in Germany, Soviet Union was already a country with over 16 years history and experience.
Hitler and the Nasis simply copied many concepts introduced in Soviet Russia like political propaganda, concentration camps (Gulags), indoctrination of youth (Pioneer/HJ), stronghold on art (soc-realism vs. German Nazi art), omnipresent secret police ogranization (NKVD vs. Gestapo), abolishing freedom of speech and political parties, infiltrating and taking over all existing organizations.
There is more similarities between Soviet Union and Nazi Germany than differences. The only differences are the result of differences in mentality between average Russian and average German, or rather Russian culture and European culture. Soviet Union was socialism adapted to the needs of feudala and agrarian Russian Empire, while Nazi Germany was socialism to the needs and realities of Western European society.
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Originally Posted by erasure
But Nazis never cancelled the idea of private ownership all together, ( which is so dear to conservatives' heart,) even in the name of the "race" interests, where Soviets sure did.
Soviet Union came to existance as a result of revolution, Nazi Germany as a result of a democratic process. Nazis, as NJGOAT proved, were definetely pushing for nationalization and full control of industry yet in a much less violent way, employing evolutionary rather then revolutionary methods. Nazis had to pretend, Soviet did not.
Germany was also much more industrialized than Soviet Empire and as a result industrialists were much stronger in Germany that they were ever in Soviet Union. Hitler could not afford offending industrialists, while Lenin/Staling after the end of NEP did not have to worry about that.
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Originally Posted by erasure
First of all conservatives value "individual rights" as long as these individual rights do not interfere with their own interests, ( should I remind of Maccartism for example?,)
Are you really trying to compare the abuse of individual rights in Soviet Union with America's own McCarthyism which by the way lasted just a few years? The abuse of individual rights in Soviet Union or Nazi Germany was on a different level than McCarthyism in America.
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Originally Posted by erasure
the idea of private property hasn't been abolished in Hitlers' Germany ( just somewhat limited,) so the only REAL difference that lies between the Conservatives and Hitler's Germany is Christianity as I've already mentioned before.
Are you trying to compare McCarthyism to abuses of power in Nazi Germany???
Why don't you realize that abuses of power in Soviet Union and Nazi Germany such as delegalizing all other political, creating one party system, integration of the ruling party with the state bureacracy, creation of concentration camps and killings of political opponents made these two countries a mirror image?
Nazis learned from Soviets how to deal with opposition in society, it was almost like cooperation of sister states. There were no other regimes in Europe that killed so many of its won citizens...
The only differences between Soviet Union and Nazi Germany were due to the fact that while Lenin and Stalin were dealing with a mostly undeveloped feudal and agrarian country which never experienced personal freedoms, Hitler had to deal with a highly educated and industrialized state used to liberal traditions and the rule of law. That's why Hitler had to be much more subtle in coercing German citizens to support his ideas than Lenin or Stalin.
First of all I have seen many works on Nazis and spritituality.
Second even Hitler's speeches do not reflect widespread persecutions of Christians in Third Reich. Hitler speeches were just a propaganda aimed to pacify German Christians uneasy about cooperating with a regime rejecting the most basic teachings of their faith. After all Catholic Church forbade its faithful from voting for Hitler.
Third: Hitler's Positive Christianity had nothing to do with Christianity.
Fourth: Hitler hasn't been in church since he was in his teen years.
Last but not least, if you picture Gestapo buildings with Christian crosses on the wals you'd be dissapointed. If you pictured Waffen-SS troops lining up for Holy Communion in chrches you'd be disssapointed even more. That did not happen. Ever.
If you think of Nazis as a Christian movement - think again.
You've missed the point. Again. Hitler didn't find Christianity convenient for his purpose, but that doesn't mean that he abolished idea of God all together. In Soviet Russia that was precisely the case.
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You walking on clouds while grasping for straws here.
First of all Soviet Russia came to existance as a result of bloody revolution and declined to honor any financial obligations of the Russian Empire while Hitler gained power via a democratic process and continuty of the state has not been lost.That's why Nazi Germany was treated differently than Soviet Union.
There was no "bloody revolution" ( just bloody civil war,) that's number one, and number two the Soviets initially pointed at capitalists as their mortal enemy, and that's who conservatives were first of all - capitalists. Hitler never pointed at conservatives as his mortal enemy, and kept the idea of private property. That's why Nazi Germany was treated differently comparably to the Soviet Union.
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Also, Soviet Russia initially tried to flirt with industrialists and business owners as well, through so called NEP.
What "industrialists?"
Don't go by hearsay - this is what NEP was primarily all about;
"The New Economic Policy (NEP) (Russian: Новая экономическая политика, НЭП, Novaya Ekonomicheskaya Politika) was an economic policy proposed by Vladimir Lenin, who called it state capitalism. Allowing some private ventures, the NEP allowed small animal businesses or smoke shops, for instance, to reopen for private profit while the state continued to control banks, foreign trade, and large industries.[1]"
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Similarities between Soviet Union and Nazi Germany? Too many to list here. First of all when Hitler got to power in Germany, Soviet Union was already a country with over 16 years history and experience.
Hitler and the Nasis simply copied many concepts introduced in Soviet Russia like political propaganda, concentration camps (Gulags), indoctrination of youth (Pioneer/HJ), stronghold on art (soc-realism vs. German Nazi art), omnipresent secret police ogranization (NKVD vs. Gestapo), abolishing freedom of speech and political parties, infiltrating and taking over all existing organizations.
Lol, Germans didn't have to "copy" anything from Russians; Prussian state was their own invention to begin with; in fact the ideas of state control, secret police, infiltration and oppression of the society were "things German," that came to Russia in earlier times, since Russian upper class was swarmed with Germans, and one of the most oppressive regimes in Russia has been named after one of them;
There is more similarities between Soviet Union and Nazi Germany than differences. The only differences are the result of differences in mentality between average Russian and average German, or rather Russian culture and European culture. Soviet Union was socialism adapted to the needs of feudala and agrarian Russian Empire, while Nazi Germany was socialism to the needs and realities of Western European society.
That's what you'd like to believe, in the reality things were quite different;
German socialism ( the one that was probably fit "for the needs and realities of Western European society") was targeted and destroyed by the Nazis, precisely because Socialists they were not.
So back to the similarities - care to list them?
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Soviet Union came to existance as a result of revolution, Nazi Germany as a result of a democratic process. Nazis, as NJGOAT proved, were definetely pushing for nationalization and full control of industry yet in a much less violent way, employing evolutionary rather then revolutionary methods. Nazis had to pretend, Soviet did not.
I have no idea what you are talking about. I looked at NJGoat's post, and this is what it says;
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1. While both believed in general egalitarian principles (all men are basically equal), the Nazi's viewed that classes should exist, but only based on merit. The Marxist view was that all classes should be eliminated and all people treated equally.
2. The Nazi state believed in the retention of private property.
3. The Nazi state believed that the State should control the economy through regulation and influence to benefit the people. Marxism believed that all industry should be the property of the state.
Nazi ideas are a "lighter version" of "conservative values," where Soviet ideas are directly opposite to "conservative values."
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Germany was also much more industrialized than Soviet Empire and as a result industrialists were much stronger in Germany that they were ever in Soviet Union. Hitler could not afford offending industrialists, while Lenin/Staling after the end of NEP did not have to worry about that.
What "industrialists" in the Soviet Union, lol? Care to name them?
The industrialists were already done and over with back in Bolshevik revolution times and Bolsheviks didn't have any problem "offending" them; in fact that's what Bolshevism was all about - to finish those industrialists off.
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Are you trying to compare McCarthyism to abuses of power in Nazi Germany???
Yes. It's the "conservative values" taken to the next level, that's all.
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Why don't you realize that abuses of power in Soviet Union and Nazi Germany such as delegalizing all other political, creating one party system, integration of the ruling party with the state bureacracy, creation of concentration camps and killings of political opponents made these two countries a mirror image?
Because the only similarity between these two societies is that both refused of Christianity and both decided to achieve their goals through their own means.
However the ideals of Nazi state are much closer to conservative ideas, ideas that unlike Nazism do not have any end goal in mind.
You've missed the point. Again. Hitler didn't find Christianity convenient for his purpose, but that doesn't mean that he abolished idea of God all together. In Soviet Russia that was precisely the case.
All European conservative movements were based on Christianity and Christian ethics. By rejecting Christianity and Christian values Hitler put himself and his movement outside of Conservative realm.
Nazis were not conservatives in any conceivable way.
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Originally Posted by erasure
There was no "bloody revolution" ( just bloody civil war,)
If you keep on denying major historical events nobody will ever discuss anything with you. Of course there was a bloody Russian Revolution, you can read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_revolution
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Originally Posted by erasure
that's number one, and number two the Soviets initially pointed at capitalists as their mortal enemy, and that's who conservatives were first of all - capitalists.
Not all conservatives are capitalists... As a matter of fact conservative is a political term while capitalists are a term from economics.
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Originally Posted by erasure
Hitler never pointed at conservatives as his mortal enemy, and kept the idea of private property. That's why Nazi Germany was treated differently comparably to the Soviet Union.
If Soviet Union came to existance thorugh a democratic process and without killing of thousands citizens, including Russian royal family. they would have been treated just like Nazis.
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Originally Posted by erasure
What "industrialists?"
Don't go by hearsay - this is what NEP was primarily all about:
"The New Economic Policy (NEP) (Russian: Новая экономическая политика, НЭП, Novaya Ekonomicheskaya Politika) was an economic policy proposed by Vladimir Lenin, who called it state capitalism. Allowing some private ventures, the NEP allowed small animal businesses or smoke shops, for instance, to reopen for private profit while the state continued to control banks, foreign trade, and large industries.[1]"
Nazis controlled all of that as well, from big banks to big industrial complex. Nazis took control over the industry but in an much subtle way that Russian socialists. They were smarter.
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Originally Posted by erasure
Lol, Germans didn't have to "copy" anything from Russians; Prussian state was their own invention to begin with; in fact the ideas of state control, secret police, infiltration and oppression of the society were "things German," that came to Russia in earlier times, since Russian upper class was swarmed with Germans, and one of the most oppressive regimes in Russia has been named after one of them;
Of course they did, Soviet propaganda and Gulags were role models for the Nazis propaganda and concetration camps.
Gulags were created years before Nazi concetration camps.
Soviet propaganda was a succesful machine years before Nazis took power in Germany.
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Originally Posted by erasure
That's what you'd like to believe, in the reality things were quite different;
German socialism ( the one that was probably fit "for the needs and realities of Western European society") was targeted and destroyed by the Nazis, precisely because Socialists they were not.
The same way Bolsheviks destroyed Mensheviks and every other leftist political movement in a fierce fight for power in Russia. Bolsheviks killed more socialists than any other political movement.
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Originally Posted by erasure
So back to the similarities - care to list them?
I already did. Soviet Union and Nazi Germany were like mirror images.
Soviet and Nazi omnipresent state propaganda.
Soviet and Nazi collusion of party and state aparattus.
Soviet and Nazi concetration camps.
Soviet and Nazi secret police machine working outside of the law
Soviet and Nazi distruction of free press.
Soviet and Nazi disctruction of opposing political movements.
Soviet and Nazis were as close as being located in different societies and cultures let them be. Nazis were the European fact of socialism.
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Originally Posted by erasure
Nazi ideas are a "lighter version" of "conservative values," where Soviet ideas are directly opposite to "conservative values."
What were the conservative values that Bolshevisk were against?
What were the conservative values that Nazis embraced?
I already told you, all European conservative movements were based on Christianity and Christian moral values and preserving of social order. Nazis rejected both and wanted completely new social system.
They can't be considered a conservative movement.
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Originally Posted by erasure
What "industrialists" in the Soviet Union, lol? Care to name them?
The industrialists were already done and over with back in Bolshevik revolution times and Bolsheviks didn't have any problem "offending" them; in fact that's what Bolshevism was all about - to finish those industrialists off.
Bolsheviks gained power though revolution, Nazis though a democratic process. Nazis had to pretend being friendly with industrialists while Bolsheviks simply killed them off.
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Originally Posted by erasure
Because the only similarity between these two societies is that both refused of Christianity and both decided to achieve their goals through their own means.
And these means, just by a mere coincidence, happened to be exactly the same? The same obnoxious propaganda, the same bloody repressions toward political opponents, the same concentration camps concept, the same idea of combining state and party organizations, the same hatred toward democracy... There are way too many "coincidences" here....
There are more similarities between Soviet Union and Nazi Germany than differences.
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Originally Posted by erasure
However the ideals of Nazi state are much closer to conservative ideas, ideas that unlike Nazism do not have any end goal in mind.
You are not making any sense. Nazis rejected traditional social order and Christian values. How does it make them closer to conservatives?
This whole discussion resembles what was going in Bolschevik Russia throughout its entire history where any opposing or dissident faction, being it Mensheviks, Zhinovyev's, Trockists or any other, were always accused of being reactionary, rightists and conservative when if fact all of them were different faces of socialism. Just like Bolsheviks and Nazis.
Last edited by revolte; 09-22-2012 at 06:22 PM..
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