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And if we think about that it has to be quite inane and ridiculous. For it would suggest then that all human behavior and personality can be defined and relegated to swatches of brief 'clips' and simply being uniformly black or white. It frankly destroys making knowledgeable assessments about soldiers in command positions with great responsibilities and under great duress because each decision they make influences life and death and the course of the campaign they are involved with.
In hindsight I would say Britain had the 'stars aligned' when Montgomery commanded the British army in WWII. In a way he 'bailed out' High Command in the sense of freeing Command from worrying about the type of army leaders they would have for prosecuting the war. Why? Because Montgomery trained the fellows who would fight for him and the country.
I'd say then from an 'Allied' point of view it was better that the 'personality' was attacked when there were hot disagreements rather than the grave implications of questioning the ability of personnel when it came to fighting the war. 'So it was 'sticks and stones can break my bones but words will never harm me'. Montgomery was prickly and viewed a 'pita' by some but hey if you want a soufflé you got to break eggs...;-)...
The only people using that line are those such as yourself who feel Hollywood has violated your national pride. It is inconceivable that the land of the Bard, Beatles, and Blake would produce people who get their information from movies.
Yet there it is. Hollywood is clearly your primary source of history and you do not shy away from it. Indeed you and others want people to know this. Very disturbing.
Firstly, you Brits were yammering about WWII long before Spielberg made that film.
Secondly, the United Kingdom has an excellent film industry. Petition a studio to make a film about a British platoon storming Normandy. One of the Tommies can make a disparaging remark about Ike, Bradley, Patton, Marshall or all of them. Then you can have your collective orgasm whilst we have a collective yawn.
Finally and most importantly, try reading some books about WWII. And get your nationalism in check.
Wow, how can you so widely miss the point?! I thought you were one of the more intelligent contributors to this thread but your comprehension is clearly lacking.
How are you extracting from my posts that I receive all my information from movies when I'm clearly arguing against people who do?!
Oh and I'm far from a patriot. Patriotism to me is an anachronism, something outdated and no longer needed. In fact I find it deeply embarrassing, even - actually especially - when Brits do it!
^^^^^^^^^
And if we think about that it has to be quite inane and ridiculous. For it would suggest then that all human behavior and personality can be defined and relegated to swatches of brief 'clips' and simply being uniformly black or white. It frankly destroys making knowledgeable assessments about soldiers in command positions with great responsibilities and under great duress because each decision they make influences life and death and the course of the campaign they are involved with.
In hindsight I would say Britain had the 'stars aligned' when Montgomery commanded the British army in WWII. In a way he 'bailed out' High Command in the sense of freeing Command from worrying about the type of army leaders they would have for prosecuting the war. Why? Because Montgomery trained the fellows who would fight for him and the country.
I'd say then from an 'Allied' point of view it was better that the 'personality' was attacked when there were hot disagreements rather than the grave implications of questioning the ability of personnel when it came to fighting the war. 'So it was 'sticks and stones can break my bones but words will never harm me'. Montgomery was prickly and viewed a 'pita' by some but hey if you want a soufflé you got to break eggs...;-)...
^^^^^^^^^
And if we think about that it has to be quite inane and ridiculous. For it would suggest then that all human behavior and personality can be defined and relegated to swatches of brief 'clips' and simply being uniformly black or white. It frankly destroys making knowledgeable assessments about soldiers in command positions with great responsibilities and under great duress because each decision they make influences life and death and the course of the campaign they are involved with.
In hindsight I would say Britain had the 'stars aligned' when Montgomery commanded the British army in WWII. In a way he 'bailed out' High Command in the sense of freeing Command from worrying about the type of army leaders they would have for prosecuting the war. Why? Because Montgomery trained the fellows who would fight for him and the country.
I'd say then from an 'Allied' point of view it was better that the 'personality' was attacked when there were hot disagreements rather than the grave implications of questioning the ability of personnel when it came to fighting the war. 'So it was 'sticks and stones can break my bones but words will never harm me'. Montgomery was prickly and viewed a 'pita' by some but hey if you want a soufflé you got to break eggs...;-)...
I highly doubt there is anyone who, as you say, claim that it wasnt the US that helped them defeat Germany. That the U.S. helped is an indisputable fact. Whether or not Germany would have been defeated without U.S. help, or whether or not Britain would have been 'speaking German' are other matters of debate. Let's talk about them.
First, Germany was not going to conquer the British Isles. By the spring of 1941, the British had gotten the u-boat situation under control. While they weren't yet winning the Battle of the Atlantic, they were holding their own and gradually developing better and better techniques for dealing with the problem. There's a long way from a civilian population being uncomfortable to being so desperate that they run up the white flag. And the British always had the upper hand in the Battle of Britain, was producing more aircraft than Germany by that time, suffered fewer losses during the battle, and had greater pilot reserves had things gone south. And even if Germany had managed to somehow achieve air superiority, the Royal Navy was still going to absolutely maul whatever feeble invasion force the Kriegsmarine could cobble together. Almost four years later, the Allieds were vastly better prepared to launch a cross-channel invasion, with far better equipment, with absolute air and sea superiority, and it was still a move fraught with risk. Had things gone differently, with someone other than Churchill in office, the UK might have sued for some peace that ended the war between the two countries - which is what Hitler was trying to force. But not a peace that involved an occupation of any sort. Hitler's primary interest was always to attack east, and the war in the west was merely a means to that end (eliminating a potential second front). When he failed there, he went east anyway.
Second, while absent the U.S. there almost certainly would never have been any British-Canadian invasion along the lines of Overlord, the Soviets would likely have eventually rolled back the Germans - all the way to the Channel, in all likelihood. So Germany was probably going to lose anyway.
This is not to say that the United States didn't profoundly impact the course of the war. Obviously, we did. But there will always be Americans who arrogantly overplay the American contribution to the war and there will always be Brits who dismissively underplay it. Such is the way petty nationalism manifests itself in these discussions.
Happily, there are plenty of honest people who can have rational discussions that don't devolve into spiteful nationalistic rants.
I'm quoting this excellent post from the first page for all the benefit of Arthur and Madison who should really take note and do some further reading.
Wow, how can you so widely miss the point?! I thought you were one of the more intelligent contributors to this thread but your comprehension is clearly lacking.
How are you extracting from my posts that I receive all my information from movies when I'm clearly arguing against people who do?!
Oh and I'm far from a patriot. Patriotism to me is an anachronism, something outdated and no longer needed. In fact I find it deeply embarrassing, even - actually especially - when Brits do it!
I said Nationalistic, not Patriotic. And of course you are Nationalistic. What else would explain trotting out a movie of all things to make a point?
You injected film into it. Don't blame me, John Bull.
I'm thinking of starting a thread where I demand that 'Americans' thank the British for standing up to the evils of Nazism alone for two years while the USA sat on its **** doing nothing, what do you guys think about that? Perhaps then you will get an idea just how it feels to have somebody completely discount and completely disregard anything that your country's servicemen did during the conflict? Perhaps then you might understand why comments like the title of this thread breed nothing but contempt!
I'm thinking of starting a thread where I demand that 'Americans' thank the British for standing up to the evils of Nazism alone for two years while the USA sat on its **** doing nothing, what do you guys think about that? Perhaps then you will get an idea just how it feels to have somebody completely discount and completely disregard anything that your country's servicemen did during the conflict? Perhaps then you might understand why comments like the title of this thread breed nothing but contempt!
I think it a dandy idea.
Then I can start a thread where I demand that the United Kingdom apologize to the Czechs for throwing their country to the wolves.
"Peace for our time", correct?
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@ post #870
