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Very interesting posts,I knew nothing about these men only thought they were honerable individuals!!
Similar to individuals in Washington today,time has not changed what power will bring.
They were all products of their time. Remember that men like Jefferson and Washington never even visited a non-slave owning colony until the Revolutionary period. Slavery in England was reintroduced as recently as the reign of Edward VI and was only abolished in Scotland in 1775 - colliers belonged to the coal mine owners - a simplification, but you get the idea.
The problem with owning slaves in VA was that even Washington could not figure out how to free them under existing law (his slaves vs. the dower slaves) and those that did, found the process took decades, even after they figured out how the disabled and elderly would be cared for. On the flip side, is how slaves were treated. Jefferson's views hardened over time. His mentor, (Lt.) Governor Fauquier did not free his slaves upon his death, but did include the caveat that they would not be sold to anyone they did not approve of. Washington was truly horrified at Jefferson's 4% return rule on the sale of slaves since until Robert E. Lee came into the Custis family circle, Washington and his heirs refused to break up slave families.
American Abolitionists were naming slavery as the nation's greatest sin as early as 1640 (Roger Williams was one of the first American Abolitionists). They all had already admitted slavery was a sin as they were penning the Constitution.
I'm not giving them a pass on slavery with any "products of their time" excuse. Even if they had found it practically difficult to divest themselves of slaves, they could have at least continued to acknowledge its essential immorality rather than doubling down on retaining slavery in the early 1800s.
The debates in the colonies, states and at the national level were at an intellectual level not seen since. That said, the Founders were as guilty of corruption as it gets - though at that time it was not seen as such. When it was decided that the nation's capital would be on the Potomac, Washington immediately bought land - even though he was cash broke. Hamilton's economic plan benefited his political supporters. Franklin as Postmaster General in 1775 appointed his son in law as comptroller. In the late 1700's corporations were a new idea; corporations had to be approved on an individual basis in state legislatures creating a good old boy system. If one is inclined to go to their state library and look up the individual bills passed from the 1790's to the 1850's, they will find most are for individuals: divorce, form a corporation, debt relief, financial assistance. Today, that might be seen as corruption, back then it wasn't.
There was no controlling legal authority in the FF’s day, and Congress had yet to address corruption with legislation.
But you missed Washington’s abuse of his expense account during the Revolution.
These guys were extremely pro-separation of church and state, they also were not all frugal, they also weren’t all peaceful (see the duel Hamilton vs Burr),
And we say the Founders were ideals of better human characters? They had one thing right. We are but men.
Adams was frugal and from what I have read did not own slaves. He also had a wife his intellectual equal or better on whom he did not cheat. Unfortunately despite his virtues he had the charisma of a dry piece of cardboard. In my view he was a very underrated founder.
I rate him more highly for his non-Presidential period than his presidency. He illustrated the principal that everyone deserves vigorous legal representation by representing the British troops accused of shooting Boston rowdies armed with snowballs and rocks. After his presidency he unsuccessfully pushed a bill to give Jews in Massachusetts equal rights. His wife did more for women's rights than Susan Anthony and Harriet Tubman.
How do we complain that we as a country are far off our ideals from our Founding Fathers when they were ironically genuine visionaries with flawed practices? How do we establish a wise and frugal Govt when our founding individuals were not always so frugal.
Thomas Jefferson was a bastion for Democratic-Republicanism and freedom. He championed his writing the Declaration of Independence
But he owned slaves, he died in enormous debt, he was extremely different from founder John Adams and if Washington was the real founder, he also had his imperfection moments undermining the freedom of the native people in various revolutionary battles.
These guys were extremely pro-separation of church and state, they also were not all frugal, they also weren’t all peaceful (see the duel Hamilton vs Burr),
And we say the Founders were ideals of better human characters? They had one thing right. We are but men.
Yes, Thomas Jefferson died in debt.
For starters, Thomas Jefferson inherited a huge debt by marriage to Martha, similar to how he inhereted his slaves, not buying them.
Back in those days, children inherited the debt of their parents. There was no just writing off the loss due to death. When Martha Jefferson’s father died, Martha inherited his huge debt, making her husband Thomas liable for it.
Thomas Jefferson was a prolific scientist/philosopher. Back then, a philosopher was a person who studied the sciences. Today it means the study of religion, knowledge and existence. You have to know your archaic terms to understand Founding history. Like George Washington being described as a Surveyor. Modern land surveying is an extremely specific occupation. Back then, a Surveyor did a good amount of engineering. To call Washington a Land Surveyor with its modern context, is to deny Washington’s engineering ability and accomplishments.
But, back to Jefferson’s debts.
As a prolific scientist, Jefferson funded all of his own research and creations. Sure, he splurged on Monticello, but that is not why he died in debt.
How about the $20,000 debt he inherited doing a favor for his friend, Wilson Cary Nicholas. Jefferson co-signed the note, allowing Nicholas to speculate on real estate investment, and lost it all in the Depression of 1819.
Jefferson also took his own large losses from the Depression of 1819. That was an investment loss, not being loose with money.
Beyond that, his occupation was Farmer. Running a profitable farm means dedication to the performance of farming. Thomas Jefferson devoted himself so long and soften to public service that he necessarily neglected his farm and suffered poor profits as a result.
The pure rancid trash dump of lies being spewed about the Founders today in order to destroy their greatness and nobility is just sinister and evil. Jefferson died in debt greatly due to debt he inherited, scientific pursuit, and a lack of time to devote to profitable farming. I would not call him "frugal”. He loved his books and his wine. He spared no expense for Monticello. But he didn’t die broke from just massive spending binges. A pure bald face lie.
Moderator cut: This isn't the Politics forum.
Last edited by mensaguy; 04-23-2021 at 05:39 AM..
Reason: Leftist schools & Marxist media aren't History
American Abolitionists were naming slavery as the nation's greatest sin as early as 1640 (Roger Williams was one of the first American Abolitionists). They all had already admitted slavery was a sin as they were penning the Constitution.
I'm not giving them a pass on slavery with any "products of their time" excuse. Even if they had found it practically difficult to divest themselves of slaves, they could have at least continued to acknowledge its essential immorality rather than doubling down on retaining slavery in the early 1800s.
The context of time is not an excuse, but a fact - slavery has existed since the beginning of time on all continents, so removing it from the world, not just the Americas, was a challenge. The abolitionist movement was still growing at the time of the revolutions, those most heavily involved were basing this belief on religious grounds (quakers primarily). Obviously it was much easier to reject slavery in the north eastern states where manual field labor was not a component of the economy.
Many of the founding fathers were anti-slavery. Adams as was mentioned, and Franklin, a former slave owner, was later a leader of an abolitionist faction.
Thomas Jefferson ironically actually drafted an anti-slavery passage in the Declaration of Independence, being that he saw slavery as an institution started by King George of England, including the trans-oceanic slave trade. He went on to call it an "assemblage of horrors" created by England (which is true). The passage obviously was taken out as southern states objected - the reason being that the expediency and the requirements of joining together this coalition of 13 separate colonies during a war of independence outweighed the division in place regarding the issue of slavery. Thus the debate was simply tabled out of necessity. Sadly, if slavery was confronted then, we likely would never have had a united country and/or would have lost the War of Independence.
Roger Williams by the way only rejected chattel slavery. He embraced the slavery of indians (actually participating in capturing and, some say, abusing the woman) and indentured servitude.
The context of time is not an excuse, but a fact - slavery has existed since the beginning of time so removing it from the world, not just the Americas, was a challenge. The abolitionist movement was still growing at the time of the revolutions, those most heavily involved were basing this belief on religious grounds (quakers primarily). Obviously it was much easier to reject slavery in the north eastern states where manual field labor was not a component of the economy.
Many of the founding fathers were anti-slavery. Adams as was mentioned, and Franklin, a former slave owner, was later a leader of an abolitionist faction.
Thomas Jefferson ironically actually drafted an anti-slavery passage in the Declaration of Independence, being that he saw slavery as an institution started by King George of England, including the trans-oceanic slave trade. He went on to call it an "assemblage of horrors" created by England (which is true). The passage obviously was taken out as southern states objected - the reason being that the expediency and the requirements of joining together this coalition of 13 separate colonies during a war of independence outweighed the division in place regarding the issue of slavery. Thus the debate was simply tabled out of necessity. Sadly, if slavery was confronted then, we likely would never have had a united country and/or would have lost the War of Independence.
I feel that you didn't actually read what I wrote, or at least not all of it:
Even if they had found it practically difficult to divest themselves of slaves, they could have at least continued to acknowledge its essential immorality rather than doubling down on retaining slavery in the early 1800s.
Adams was frugal and from what I have read did not own slaves. He also had a wife his intellectual equal or better on whom he did not cheat. Unfortunately despite his virtues he had the charisma of a dry piece of cardboard. In my view he was a very underrated founder.
I rate him more highly for his non-Presidential period than his presidency. He illustrated the principal that everyone deserves vigorous legal representation by representing the British troops accused of shooting Boston rowdies armed with snowballs and rocks. After his presidency he unsuccessfully pushed a bill to give Jews in Massachusetts equal rights. His wife did more for women's rights than Susan Anthony and Harriet Tubman.
Adams was extraordinarily bright and has a number of accomplishments as a founding father.
Often, though a person's weaknesses come out over time. Adams was a good example of this. He was sent to France as a diplomatic emissary during the Revolutionary War by the Continental Congress. He proceeded to be very demanding and downright offensive in his conversations with French governmental officials. It was so much so that Adams was told to back off by Ben Franklin who was also there for that purpose. Eventually, Adams was sent to the Netherlands which was deemed as less important than France was.
I think its important to examine regional stereotypes when we attempt to analyze Adams character. Adams was from New England and New Englanders have always had a reputation for being more abrupt and sometimes downright abrasive in their dealings with others. Adams was probably all that and more. In fact, he was known as a curmudgeon by many. His presidency was full of all kinds of anecdotes about him telling someone off. He even told off the painter who prepared a painting of the scene of the founding fathers signing the Declaration of Independence in Philadelphia in 1776 because the painting was not historically correct. He allowed his deteriorating relationship with Jefferson and the anti-federalists to become downright toxic during his one-term presidency.
It is important to note though that Adams did negotiate an end to the Undeclared Naval War with France. Had the fruits of these negotiations been known months earlier he might have been reelected president. Finally, after leaving office, he repaired his relationship with Jefferson and the two engaged in a public correspondence for years. Incredibly, both men died on July 4, 1826 (fifty years after the signing of the Declaration of Independence).
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