Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Makes sense. For your particular household, why not maybe broaden your marketability so that you are not just be tied to a job dependent on 1 location? What happens if that market implodes? I earn income in a very diversified manner. And even then, my primary source of income can be made in any place so long as there is an internet connection.
For the most part, all I am saying is that everyone needs to work towards actions that help put themselves in a position to be able to do what they need/want to do. I hear a lot of people saying "they are in X predicament, or Y predicament and its someone elses' fault". When you dive deeper, these people are saying they are financially strained but also have the latest cell phone, buy their kids designer clothes for school, spend money on cable tv etc.
These are very good points. But we can recognize that we are in a predicament through our choices, and still note that it's not a fair predicament. I mentioned (8 miles up on this thread) that certain professions are not high-earning ones. That puts people in an income-stressed predicament, made worse by property tax burdens. Sure, they could choose a different job. But we NEED teachers, firefighters, policemen, and similarly underpaid professionals. If our economy is structured (as it is now) so that these are positions that you should avoid if all possible to spare yourself economic hardship, we're not setting our society up for success. Basic market principles do not work in practice.
Listen to the first episode of the "Pitchfork economic" podcast before you argue with me.
These are very good points. But we can recognize that we are in a predicament through our choices, and still note that it's not a fair predicament. I mentioned (8 miles up on this thread) that certain professions are not high-earning ones. That puts people in an income-stressed predicament, made worse by property tax burdens. Sure, they could choose a different job. But we NEED teachers, firefighters, policemen, and similarly underpaid professionals. If our economy is structured (as it is now) so that these are positions that you should avoid if all possible to spare yourself economic hardship, we're not setting our society up for success. Basic market principles do not work in practice.
Listen to the first episode of the "Pitchfork economic" podcast before you argue with me.
I speak with my local police and fire department folks all the time. I live in a small un annexed part of houston. They seem very happy with their situation. My wife is friends with a handful of teachers at my sons school. They say they are fulfilled and content. Does everyone believe they deserve more money? Sure! I dont need to listen to someone elses' ideas before I can construct my own and deduce the fact that your family chooses to earn a living thorugh a very niche market is a risky proposition. My perspective is derived from my own path and the choices i made plus life experiences. When you make a decision, you make the decision based on all variables on the table. I dont see a shortage in teachers or first respondent workers where I live. In fact, I would argue the opposite. People line up to be teachers and in the police force in my city.
On the other side of the coin. If living in a state that doesnt collect a state income tax puts pressure on lower earners, why wouldn't they just go to a state that is more friendly towards that predicament? It doesnt take much to pack a few belongings in your suitcase and bolt for a different state (via your own car, bus ticket, train etc?) If Texas decided a state income tax that was not well balanced, Id be out in a heart beat.
This argument is wrong on many levels, like others have commented, but how about the fact that when your roof is leaking you typically try to fix it rather than simply moving to a different house? If you really don't understand the idea that is wrong to have multimillionaires being able to hide millions from taxation, all while TX ranks at the bottom of the country in things like education and healthcare outcomes, I'm not sure what else to tell you.
If you're a multimillionaire, of course you have the right to like the system, but if you're more like one of your teacher/firefighter friends who is happy here because they simply don't understand the trade-off, I'm just sorry for you. It's not that easy for someone to uproot their entire lives and move like you claim, because you are unhappy. It's easier to do that if you're a multimillionaire but not if you have a family and depend on your local job. Besides, think about it, if people could really move that easily like you claim according to their own personal incentives, would it really benefit society? If all the high earners would move to TX and all the low earners would move to other places, who would mow your lawn? Who woud grow your food? Who would teach your kids? It's absurd to think we can have a well functioning society if everyone could indeed move freely like that to a different state.
This argument is wrong on many levels, like others have commented, but how about the fact that when your roof is leaking you typically try to fix it rather than simply moving to a different house? If you really don't understand the idea that is wrong to have multimillionaires being able to hide millions from taxation, all while TX ranks at the bottom of the country in things like education and healthcare outcomes, I'm not sure what else to tell you.
If you're a multimillionaire, of course you have the right to like the system, but if you're more like one of your teacher/firefighter friends who is happy here because they simply don't understand the trade-off, I'm just sorry for you. It's not that easy for someone to uproot their entire lives and move like you claim, because you are unhappy. It's easier to do that if you're a multimillionaire but not if you have a family and depend on your local job. Besides, think about it, if people could really move that easily like you claim according to their own personal incentives, would it really benefit society? If all the high earners would move to TX and all the low earners would move to other places, who would mow your lawn? Who woud grow your food? Who would teach your kids? It's absurd to think we can have a well functioning society if everyone could indeed move freely like that to a different state.
This argument was about taking control of the things you can control dependent on the predicament.
For relation to my post, I live a comfortable life. No question. But I came from the bottom and worked my way up. My parents came here with nothing. My dad worked at Mcdonalds when I was a child.
I grew up in Texas. My parents raised us through these variables that were handed to them. When I graduated university I wasnt handed some kush job due to a well connected network. I made $22k a year (entry) level and worked my way up. I paid whatever taxes I was asked to pay. I lived by the same rules as everyone else.
The difference is I concentrated on what I could control. I built my knowledge based on my passions. I took side jobs (yes I was the dude that would haul the junk out of "your" garage) at nights. I saved my money and made long term investments that would provide me passive income. I paid taxes on those as well. I will say I am not well informed in politics, and maybe im disconnected. I can only speak from my experience. But I had nothing. The difference I see about people now a days saying "they are just getting by" all while holding a $1000 smart phone and driving a 2 year old car. I sit back and shake my head as they complain about someone else holding them back.
This argument is wrong on many levels, like others have commented, but how about the fact that when your roof is leaking you typically try to fix it rather than simply moving to a different house? If you really don't understand the idea that is wrong to have multimillionaires being able to hide millions from taxation, all while TX ranks at the bottom of the country in things like education and healthcare outcomes, I'm not sure what else to tell you.
If you're a multimillionaire, of course you have the right to like the system, but if you're more like one of your teacher/firefighter friends who is happy here because they simply don't understand the trade-off, I'm just sorry for you. It's not that easy for someone to uproot their entire lives and move like you claim, because you are unhappy. It's easier to do that if you're a multimillionaire but not if you have a family and depend on your local job. Besides, think about it, if people could really move that easily like you claim according to their own personal incentives, would it really benefit society? If all the high earners would move to TX and all the low earners would move to other places, who would mow your lawn? Who woud grow your food? Who would teach your kids? It's absurd to think we can have a well functioning society if everyone could indeed move freely like that to a different state.
I think we need to make a distinction between productive and non-productive members of the upper class. If you invent a new product, improve quality of service and create a better world in general then I think people should be compensated very well for their effort, this incentive is very important to the advancement of society.
The problem is that most people these days only see the "bad" rich, the corporate executives or hedge fund managers (look up Paul Singer) that get super wealthy by doing financial trickery like issuing corporate bonds to buy back stock.
I don't think more taxes is the answer, if you want to fix it get rid of the system that allows such bad actors to profit from it without actually contributing anything of value.
This argument was about taking control of the things you can control dependent on the predicament.
For relation to my post, I live a comfortable life. No question. But I came from the bottom and worked my way up. My parents came here with nothing. My dad worked at Mcdonalds when I was a child.
I grew up in Texas. My parents raised us through these variables that were handed to them. When I graduated university I wasnt handed some kush job due to a well connected network. I made $22k a year (entry) level and worked my way up. I paid whatever taxes I was asked to pay. I lived by the same rules as everyone else.
The difference is I concentrated on what I could control. I built my knowledge based on my passions. I took side jobs (yes I was the dude that would haul the junk out of "your" garage) at nights. I saved my money and made long term investments that would provide me passive income. I paid taxes on those as well. I will say I am not well informed in politics, and maybe im disconnected. I can only speak from my experience. But I had nothing. The difference I see about people now a days saying "they are just getting by" all while holding a $1000 smart phone and driving a 2 year old car. I sit back and shake my head as they complain about someone else holding them back.
Kudos to you. The fact you made it, in spite of everything is laudable but that doesn't mean the rest of us shouldn't try to improve the system we live in.
What you don't realize is that the country overall has historically gone to lower and lower taxes and lower and lower investments in public goods. Except for the military, everything else has suffered. I know this is not what they tell you on TV, but it is the truth. It might come as a shock to you but the top marginal tax rate before the 80s was over 70%. It is now 37%. And no that doesn't mean people paid 70% of their income to the Feds! But the facts remain that while you're being told on TV that this country is heading towards socialism, the opposite is actually true. Yours and mine generations had a lot of benefits from those high tax rates and the investment that were made from those. Nowadays, our kids get lousy education, we all get lousy healtcare, and yes to some degree the work ethic of folks has gone down. But can you really blame someone for a lack of work ething when people work double shifts for basically nothing and those who want to get educated have to get in debt for it? Trickle down economics is voodoo economics, to quote GB. It just does't work. Also less and less people are entrepreneurial because that means taking a risk and people are less and less predisposed to risk because they don't have a safety net to fall back to in case they fail. It is absolutely astonishing to me how ALL developed countries in this world can find ways to fund education and health at a decent level, while the richest country in the world cannot.
But again, kudos to you for making it. That doesn't take anything away from the rest of the discussion. Bill Gates became one of the richest people in the world while dropping out of college. It doesn't mean everybody who drops out will be succesful as he was.
I think we need to make a distinction between productive and non-productive members of the upper class. If you invent a new product, improve quality of service and create a better world in general then I think people should be compensated very well for their effort, this incentive is very important to the advancement of society.
The problem is that most people these days only see the "bad" rich, the corporate executives or hedge fund managers (look up Paul Singer) that get super wealthy by doing financial trickery like issuing corporate bonds to buy back stock.
I don't think more taxes is the answer, if you want to fix it get rid of the system that allows such bad actors to profit from it without actually contributing anything of value.
Nobody said more taxes. That is the false narrative that leads people to choose things that are actually hurting them. We are talking about a DIFFERENT system of taxation, that taxes income too, not just consumption and property. I never said rich people are bad and I never mentioned anything related to corporate fraud or anything like that.
I agree with you that people should be compensated for their innovation. That is how the economy grows. But that doesn't prohibit an income tax system. People can innovate, get stinking rich from that, pay a portion of that in taxes and get to enjoy the rest. It's pretty simple actually, if you really judge it fairly. Like I mentioned in the previous post, the US had 70-90% top marginal tax rate in the 40s-80s and innovation didn't stop. CA has one of the highest state income tax rates in the country and it leads the country in innovation.
Income taxes don't prevent innovation, they actually spur it by allowing governments to fund important programs like education, research, etc. And by taking the weight off of the poor and giving them a slightly better chance to get educated, afford better food, etc. And guess what, lower economic inequality also helps with things like the drug epidemic, mental health issues, and neighborhood crime. Again, I'm not arguing for socialism. It is good to have some inequality so that people get the right incentives, as long as the inequality is not too high.
Kudos to you. The fact you made it, in spite of everything is laudable but that doesn't mean the rest of us shouldn't try to improve the system we live in.
What you don't realize is that the country overall has historically gone to lower and lower taxes and lower and lower investments in public goods. Except for the military, everything else has suffered. I know this is not what they tell you on TV, but it is the truth. It might come as a shock to you but the top marginal tax rate before the 80s was over 70%. It is now 37%. And no that doesn't mean people paid 70% of their income to the Feds! But the facts remain that while you're being told on TV that this country is heading towards socialism, the opposite is actually true. Yours and mine generations had a lot of benefits from those high tax rates and the investment that were made from those. Nowadays, our kids get lousy education, we all get lousy healtcare, and yes to some degree the work ethic of folks has gone down. But can you really blame someone for a lack of work ething when people work double shifts for basically nothing and those who want to get educated have to get in debt for it? Trickle down economics is voodoo economics, to quote GB. It just does't work. Also less and less people are entrepreneurial because that means taking a risk and people are less and less predisposed to risk because they don't have a safety net to fall back to in case they fail. It is absolutely astonishing to me how ALL developed countries in this world can find ways to fund education and health at a decent level, while the richest country in the world cannot.
But again, kudos to you for making it. That doesn't take anything away from the rest of the discussion. Bill Gates became one of the richest people in the world while dropping out of college. It doesn't mean everybody who drops out will be succesful as he was.
I respect where you are coming from and pardon me if I dont understand economics and certain concepts like trickle down etc.
I dont watch TV. I just experience life from what is around me and what is around others that I know.
As stated, my parents came here with nothing in the 70's and I guess they paid these high taxes that you are talking about. I even remember my father talking about paying some insanely high interest rate for our home in alief. He worked low paying jobs (think technician level jobs at his peak) and still managed to save a few mill by the time he retired.
Is a different system really going o change anything? Or should people maybe start getting smarter about their finances?
My kids go to public school (by choice) and I feel like their education is fine.
I have had to get quite a bit of healthcare recently (artificial disc replacement surgery - cervical) and the healthcare experienced felt totally fine to me. So I guess I dont see it or maybe my expectation is different?
I didnt go into debt to get an education. I was told at an early age you are either getting a full scholarship or you will not be going to college. So I applied myself and focused in school....graduated with no debt.
On paper I should be living in a house twice the cost of what I live in, but I feel it is not necessary.
Im all for funding healthcare for people that need it and are financially responsible.
Im not sure about funding someone elses' higher learning education.
Great conversation, its opening up my world to other people's thoughts and perspectives.
Out of curiosity, what do you think an improved system looks like?
As it stands I paid a heft amount in property tax and a heft amount in federal income tax last year. Albeit yes, probably not the highest percentage (nothing near what you stated in the 80's) I guess it would even out for me if the property tax was lowered and a state income tax was put into play. Just generally curious what people think "new and improved" would look like.
Great conversation, its opening up my world to other people's thoughts and perspectives.
Out of curiosity, what do you think an improved system looks like?
Look, I bet you and me actually share a lot of beliefs. I strongly respect people who beat the odds and made something of themselves through sheer will and determination. But what I'm saying is that not everybody can do that. If that was the case, there would be no poverty in the world. All countries would be rich and all people would thrive. Which is clearly not happening. Why some nations were able to get rich while others stagnated has a lot to do with the policies they implemented. Why is South Korea super rich when their brothers to the north are dirt poor? Different genes? No, theyre the same people. It's different policies and government institutions that foster that growth.
We still live in the best country of the world overall, if you ask me. But there are certain areas where we are starting to fall behind. And it's in part due to the economic policies perpetuated over the past 30-40 years. What could we improve? I could list tons of things here, but keeping it to taxation issues, a good taxation system is one that follows a few basic principles of taxation. These principles were formulated many years ago by Adam Smith, the father of modern economics. One of these principles talks about the ability to pay, and basically means that a good taxing system should be "progressive"...meaning the tax rates get progressively higher, the richer you are. Most countries in the world have progressive tax rates. The US collects federal taxes using a progressive rates system.
Currently, the state of TX, by not collecting income taxes (but still needing to collect revenue) is essentially giving a pass to very high earners and shifts the burden of taxation onto poorer households. That's what people mean when they say the tax system is "regressive". So instead of being progressive (more tax burden on the rich and less on the poor) is it reversed. Now the rich will still pay higher taxes overall (in dollar amounts) because they also consume more, live in larger houses, etc. But in percentage terms, reported to their incomes, the tax burden is smaller for very high earners. That in itself, is unfair if you ask me, but beyond that it has a number of serious consequences at the national level: we are falling behing all other developed nations in educational outcomes and health outcomes in particular. Again, your personal experience might be great. Some people are still able to access top level education and health in the US. But the country average is falling behind that of the other developed countries. We are richer than them, but we live less on average, have more illnesses, achieve less education, and so on. Why is that? Partly because most other developed countries have national policies when it comes to education and health, while we don't.
Now, what happened in the US over the past half century was that more and more taxation was shifted from the central authority to the local authorities. So from the federal level to the state and from the state to municipalities. With that also came the decentralization of spending. So we have created a system where huge chunks of this country (the poor chunks) cannot get access to good quality education and healthcare. Because most education is funded locally, you will have great schools with great funding in rich neighborhoods and terrible ones in poor ones. Same with health clinics and the likes. Now on some level, everywhere in the world the rich get better access to such things. So I'm not asking that everyone should be equal. But most other develop countries guarantee some basic level of education and health to everyone, no matter how rich or poor you are. We simply don't. And that leads to a vicious circle: it is very hard for someone to make something of himself when you start poor, go to horrible schools, can't afford proper nutrition and healthcare, etc. etc. Most countries see education as a national investment. Only we Americans see it as a personal investment. As if me getting educated only benefits myself personally, and nothing to society.
I'd better stop. Long story short: lower property and sales taxes and collect some income tax. It doesn't need to be as high as CA, but it needs to be something so the tax burden shifts a bit off of the poorest people in the state.
On the other side of the coin. If living in a state that doesnt collect a state income tax puts pressure on lower earners, why wouldn't they just go to a state that is more friendly towards that predicament? It doesnt take much to pack a few belongings in your suitcase and bolt for a different state (via your own car, bus ticket, train etc?) If Texas decided a state income tax that was not well balanced, Id be out in a heart beat.
I hope all Texas conservatives think like you
To see them doing that when Texas turns blue
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
