Houston CORE developments thread (West: sales, groceries, shoppers)

[ParaguaneroSwag]

Originally Posted by LocalPlanner

While one could quibble about it, for ease of use I basically consider it to be Loop + Uptown. I say there are four "core" white-collar-ish activity centers: Downtown, Uptown, TMC, and Greenway / UK. Whether one should include locations such as, say, Gulfgate, Bellaire, Kashmere Gardens, or Garden Oaks in the "core" is perhaps debatable, but Loop + Uptown will generally get you where you need to go.

In my opinion, Loop != Core

Parts of the loop aren’t in the core such as Magnolia Park. And parts that aren’t in the loop are in the core such as Uptown.

[LocalPlanner]

Originally Posted by ParaguaneroSwag

In my opinion, Loop != Core

Parts of the loop aren’t in the core such as Magnolia Park. And parts that aren’t in the loop are in the core such as Uptown.

Yeah, I generally agree with you when getting down to details, but for a handy quick rough guide, Loop + Uptown will work. Think of it as having "fuzzy edges."

[NigerianNightmare]

For me it’s about potential. The loop isn’t a 1-1 but Houston which is famous for suburbia and cul-de-sacs has a massive grid, in fact one of the biggest in the U.S. I also don’t believe that you need a grid to be urban like many of my fellow urbanists. In the realms of Civil Engineering you could turn literally anything urban. But I do think the grid has the most potential, just look at Gulfton which maximizes density without even having a remotely urban landscape. The apartments aren’t even tall over. You could eliminate some parking lots: make them parks* not necessarily add more housing. Make the buildings there 3 times as tall and the neighborhood would still be midrises and have a density of like 45,000 people.

Much larger part of Houston could be urbanized than the loop but looking at demographics realistically I don’t know if Houston is getting much bigger than 10,000,000 at least in my lifetime. So I think with that factored in the loop is where you can do the most change and make it connected. Because even if you urbanize an area like Highway 6 which is already dense it will have connectivity issues in a city as big as Houston to the rest of the core.

Hence even the far eastern reaches of the loop even if they never get actual urban amenities will become more urban by just being in really close proximity to actual urban areas. That in itself is part of the equation for me.

[ParaguaneroSwag]

Originally Posted by NigerianNightmare

For me it’s about potential. The loop isn’t a 1-1 but Houston which is famous for suburbia and cul-de-sacs has a massive grid, in fact one of the biggest in the U.S. I also don’t believe that you need a grid to be urban like many of my fellow urbanists. In the realms of Civil Engineering you could turn literally anything urban. But I do think the grid has the most potential, just look at Gulfton which maximizes density without even having a remotely urban landscape. The apartments aren’t even tall over. You could eliminate some parking lots: make them parks* not necessarily add more housing. Make the buildings there 3 times as tall and the neighborhood would still be midrises and have a density of like 45,000 people.

Much larger part of Houston could be urbanized than the loop but looking at demographics realistically I don’t know if Houston is getting much bigger than 10,000,000 at least in my lifetime. So I think with that factored in the loop is where you can do the most change and make it connected. Because even if you urbanize an area like Highway 6 which is already dense it will have connectivity issues in a city as big as Houston to the rest of the core.

Hence even the far eastern reaches of the loop even if they never get actual urban amenities will become more urban by just being in really close proximity to actual urban areas. That in itself is part of the equation for me.

I think 10M will definitely be reached in our lifetime. Already on the way to 8M. While it will eventually begin to stall out, I don’t think there’s any particular barriers working against that leg of growth.

Edit: I See you said “much bigger” so disregard my post. New response below:

What I believe is the case, is that there has recently been a wave of focus in the urbanizing the loop and that will continue to change over the years. Strip Malls are being torn down and high rises are being built on top of them. Suburban fast food joints are being destroyed. Large scale urban focused projects like Regent Square, Autry Park, River Oaks District, Ion District etc. it appears the wave of redeveloping office towers into residential has began.

There will be road blocks at some point such as pandemics, recessions, etc. but even with that, I believe that the foundation is focused that way and we’re either finally at the point where projects are feeding off of eachother to promote pedestrianism or we’re close to it.

The success of the Katy BRT is also a very important experiment that will determine where we go from there.

[ParaguaneroSwag]

Lots of people say the Willowbrook Mall failed. From the outside, it looks ok and there’s decent restaurants and successful hotels surrounding the mall. I’ve never been inside. Is it a different story inside or something?

[LocalPlanner]

Originally Posted by ParaguaneroSwag

Lots of people say the Willowbrook Mall failed. From the outside, it looks ok and there’s decent restaurants and successful hotels surrounding the mall. I’ve never been inside. Is it a different story inside or something?

Willowbrook Mall, from what I have understood, is doing fine, at least by mall standards (which have admittedly lowered in the last 10-15 years). It still has strong occupancy and name-brand businesses, though I'm sure it faces challenges as most malls do. It's not Galleria / Memorial City / Baybrook / The Woodlands level strong, but it and First Colony are probably next level down mall-wise.

I think what has created the perception that it's "failed", to be perfectly frank, is that suburban Anglo women don't like malls that attract large numbers of younger Black and Hispanic people. To them that's "failure." In that vein, I've seen comments to that effect about The Galleria since it's apparently established itself as a national-level Black destination for luxury shopping apparently celebrated in "hip hop culture" - it's "in trouble." I'm not really a mall shopper at this point and certainly not a consumer of hip hop culture, so perhaps take this assessment with a grain of salt, but that's what I've gathered from my observations.

Similarly, that was a factor in killing off West Oaks Mall - Katy and Fort Bend Anglo women refused to patronize it anymore when it became clear that Black and Hispanic patrons were the majority. Not the only factor, but still an important one. In this respect, it's kind of a miracle that Memorial City still thrives, as Anglos are definitely a minority of customers there.

[ParaguaneroSwag]

Originally Posted by LocalPlanner

Willowbrook Mall, from what I have understood, is doing fine, at least by mall standards (which have admittedly lowered in the last 10-15 years). It still has strong occupancy and name-brand businesses, though I'm sure it faces challenges as most malls do. It's not Galleria / Memorial City / Baybrook / The Woodlands level strong, but it and First Colony are probably next level down mall-wise.

I think what has created the perception that it's "failed", to be perfectly frank, is that suburban Anglo women don't like malls that attract large numbers of younger Black and Hispanic people. To them that's "failure." In that vein, I've seen comments to that effect about The Galleria since it's apparently established itself as a national-level Black destination for luxury shopping apparently celebrated in "hip hop culture" - it's "in trouble." I'm not really a mall shopper at this point and certainly not a consumer of hip hop culture, so perhaps take this assessment with a grain of salt, but that's what I've gathered from my observations.

Similarly, that was a factor in killing off West Oaks Mall - Katy and Fort Bend Anglo women refused to patronize it anymore when it became clear that Black and Hispanic patrons were the majority. Not the only factor, but still an important one. In this respect, it's kind of a miracle that Memorial City still thrives, as Anglos are definitely a minority of customers there.

I also notice that any mall or place that was formerly a mainly white audience and starts attracting blacks and Hispanics is now a failure. Well I guess america is on its way to failing

[Jack Lance]

Originally Posted by LocalPlanner

Willowbrook Mall, from what I have understood, is doing fine, at least by mall standards (which have admittedly lowered in the last 10-15 years). It still has strong occupancy and name-brand businesses, though I'm sure it faces challenges as most malls do. It's not Galleria / Memorial City / Baybrook / The Woodlands level strong, but it and First Colony are probably next level down mall-wise.

I think what has created the perception that it's "failed", to be perfectly frank, is that suburban Anglo women don't like malls that attract large numbers of younger Black and Hispanic people. To them that's "failure." In that vein, I've seen comments to that effect about The Galleria since it's apparently established itself as a national-level Black destination for luxury shopping apparently celebrated in "hip hop culture" - it's "in trouble." I'm not really a mall shopper at this point and certainly not a consumer of hip hop culture, so perhaps take this assessment with a grain of salt, but that's what I've gathered from my observations.

Similarly, that was a factor in killing off West Oaks Mall - Katy and Fort Bend Anglo women refused to patronize it anymore when it became clear that Black and Hispanic patrons were the majority. Not the only factor, but still an important one. In this respect, it's kind of a miracle that Memorial City still thrives, as Anglos are definitely a minority of customers there.

Do you think that White/Anglo women feel unsafe at these majority/minority malls? And that's why they stop going?

[LocalPlanner]

Originally Posted by Jack Lance

Do you think that White/Anglo women feel unsafe at these majority/minority malls? And that's why they stop going?

They may "feel" unsafe; whether that's actually justified relative to any other commercial destination is questionable. After all, almost all retail attracts crime of one sort or another. I think a lot of it has to do with malls having traditionally (OK, since the 1970s) been a place for teenagers to hang out, which didn't bother Anglo women until Black and Hispanic teens started going to malls in large numbers. I don't know that teens "hang out" at Target, in contrast.

[Jack Lance]

Originally Posted by LocalPlanner

They may "feel" unsafe; whether that's actually justified relative to any other commercial destination is questionable. After all, almost all retail attracts crime of one sort or another. I think a lot of it has to do with malls having traditionally (OK, since the 1970s) been a place for teenagers to hang out, which didn't bother Anglo women until Black and Hispanic teens started going to malls in large numbers. I don't know that teens "hang out" at Target, in contrast.

I think these Malls are considered to be failing because of the attitudes in the retail industry towards the addressable market in these malls and not because some white soccer moms are afraid to go to Greenspoint (if that place is still open) or Willowbrook or whatever.

Maybe it's retailers that are abandoning these areas too soon. They're afraid of being robbed I'm sure, but even robbers need to shop and buy Groceries, so maybe they need to realize they cannot run away from minority crime and crime in general and quit creating these retail deserts that result from their retreating