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Yes there's a well kept secret of religious "merit" point system. We get extra points for taking non-believers to church, the younger they are the higher points we get. Saint Peter checks our debit card at the gate and decide how close we get to sit next to Jesus depending on our point system.
For the adults, the worst of their moral characters, the more points we get for brainwash... errr... converting them to christianty. If fact, additional brownie points if they actually cry during confessions.
It has nothing to do with the "appearance" that we "seem" to geniunely care and happy to see your children play well with ours and show willingness to come to church with us despite their parents' paranoia about insititutional religions.
The hypocrisy is revealed when those same parents who are happy to see their kids playing nice with what they think are other "good Christian children", suddenly disallow their kids to play with what they have discovered to be atheist children - particularly on the athiest's terms (something I've experienced). A Christian kid can't play at the atheist's house because they might mention that there's no such thing as God... yet, Christians are outraged at hearing of atheist children who can't play with Christian children because one does not want them "brainwashed". Speaking of which, I truly know of no better word - abrassive as it sounds. I happen to know that the teachers at my 2 year old's daycare lead the children in a prayer at the beginning of every meal (to my constant complaint). This is brainwashing at its best - establish the existence of something in the child's mind before one has established the mental capacity to determine truth. IMO, its an abuse of the innocence of children - who will accept anything an adult says. Christian parents have no problem with this being done to other children, but would be up in arms given the reverse. It's a lack of common respect IMO.
There's no good answer to the question of "genuine care". I'm sure the care is mostly genuine. The problem gets to the common failure of Christians to put themselves in someone else's shoes. Imagine if I, an athiest, ran around trying to convince people not to go to church because of my concern for their intellectual well being - and repeatedly expressing my sadness at their choice to throw away their most important possession. I imagine Christians would find that about as insulting as I find their sorrow for my "lost soul".
I may feel bad for the minds of those who go to church (especially from a young age), but I at least have the respect for others not to beat it over their heads.
Last edited by DvlsAdvc8; 02-12-2010 at 09:58 AM..
I have no need for my children to be going to church with neighbors.
They go with me.
If I did not go to church myself. I would be home to babysit my own kids and wouldn't need a neighbor taking my kids to their church so I could get------free babysitting
So, you never appreciate when your kids go to a friend's house or other and you get some free time away from them?
Being the politician I am - I had to cringe when Charles used those exact words, but it is something that in fact all parents appreciate. We all need quiet time.
To this point, Charles obviously hasn't viewed church attendance as such a threat that it should impede on that quiet time. I see no difference with this versus being uncomfortable with the parenting of one of your kid's friends - and your kid spending hours at his house every morning. I think we all appreciate the free time - and would sit and wonder what nonsense our child is getting into. At that point, its a judgement call.
An agnostic is different from an atheist ( who believes there is no God) because an agnostic is one who believes they don't know if there is a God or there isn't.
Saying one is a devout agnostic is an oxymoron.
It would be like saying someone has strong convictions on a position they answered--"I don't know "
I hate that word - Agnostic. A-gnossis = no knowledge. You don't know. Great, if you don't know, you don't have faith. If you don't have faith you don't believe in God. If you're without God you are an atheist: A-theism = no God. There are so many people afraid of the word that this word agnostic has popped up as this less offensive alternative. You either believe in God or you don't. No knowing, is not believing, which is atheism.
The average person has very little understanding of what it means to be an atheist. It is not rejection of God or denial of God. Both of those accept God as the starting point for reasoning - this is a product of culture conditioning... as Charles would call it: "brainwashing". In truth, without being told what God is by someone else, one begins with no God and goes from there. This is an example of accepting a claim as truth prior to one developing a system by which to judge the truth of claims. Notice that even theists hold most claims to higher scrutiny than they do God.
Atheism is simply that no claim of God has ever met with such evidence sufficent to judge such claim true. This applies even to things many people attribute their conversion to - such as "miracles". In order to believe in a miracle by God, as opposed to such occurrance being a fortunate coincidence - or otherwise good luck (chance), one still has to have accepted the concept of God even if reluctantly. The event itself (however great and important to you it is) is not evidence of anything besides the fact of the event occuring - it does not say a God did it. For one to arrive at that, one has already been indoctrinated... even if one has been consciously avoiding accepting the fact.
One either accepts that mystical supernatural things can occur that are beyond the realm of man's ability to understand and explain - or one accepts that there are laws that govern nature and regardless of how complex, can be conceiveably tested and understood.
If one accepts these mystical things, then one wonders what the point of pursuing knowledge is at all - for in truth, all things that are not understood, are effectively mystical.
So, you never appreciate when your kids go to a friend's house or other and you get some free time away from them?
Being the politician I am - I had to cringe when Charles used those exact words, but it is something that in fact all parents appreciate. We all need quiet time.
To this point, Charles obviously hasn't viewed church attendance as such a threat that it should impede on that quiet time. I see no difference with this versus being uncomfortable with the parenting of one of your kid's friends - and your kid spending hours at his house every morning. I think we all appreciate the free time - and would sit and wonder what nonsense our child is getting into. At that point, its a judgement call.
---" So, you never appreciate when your kids go to a friend's house or other and you get some free time away from them"---
Not if what they do under the care of others is making me-- uncomfortable !
Charles did use that word .
No free babysitting is worth it if I am uncomfortable with the actions of the " babysitters".
---" So, you never appreciate when your kids go to a friend's house or other and you get some free time away from them"---
Not if what they do under the care of others is making me-- uncomfortable !
Charles did use that word .
No free babysitting is worth it if I am uncomfortable with the actions of the " babysitters".
So you are perfectly comfortable with all the people your kids associate with outside of your care? Is the bold supposed to give extra weight?
This is not a true or false condition. It is a degree of scale. We all have varying levels of comfort with various people and situations. We make judgements based on our level of comfort and tolerate things to varying degrees.
Charles judges the fun his kids are having in the social environment of church, along with the time he and his wife get together as over-riding the discomfort he has at knowning his kids are being taught a bunch of nonsense. A far cry from discomfort with the safety of a situation or similar - see the scale? Or would you be of the opinion that he should keep his children from all influences with which he doesn't agree?
Do you keep your children away from all such influences? Or do you allow them to experience things with which you are not entirely comfortable with after all?
Last edited by DvlsAdvc8; 02-12-2010 at 10:19 AM..
What are you going to do if you kid's friends' parents are uncomfortable with their kids playing with your kid?
We will discuss it as mature adults. If there be no reasonable remedy, then they will cease playing together.
Are you suggesting I falsely profess a faith just in order to fit in? Sorry...I will not. Will I tolerate socializing with religiously-inclined peoples? Absolutely. I always have. Of my vast RL array, really, there is only one other true atheist in my circle. And it is not my husband. Religion has not been a major factor in my relationships, if we respect each other enough to allow for disagreements and tend to discuss other things instead.
If, when Sweet Pea is OLDER, meaning not 6 but 16, and wants to attend church with a friend, exploring various practices, I will not stand in her way.
But at her age now, it would be too easy to convince her through repetitive teachings that Mommy is a sinner or that she needs to be baptized for salvation.
I don't want my daughter around anyone who could not stand to have her as she is.
Quote:
Two of my kids hitch rides with their friends to church on Sundays. We let them do it because for us it is like free babysitting - we can have a more peaceful Sunday morning. But I am very uncomfortable with it. Both my six year old and my eight year old are starting to become brainwashed. I am 80% certain that if I told those parents that I am uncomfortable with my kids going to their church that those parents would have their kids avoid my kids, like described above. I'm sort of in a jam - have my kids lose their best friends or suck it up and let my kids keep getting brainwashed. The neighbors really like taking them - they probably score points with their pastors or something - or maybe they think god will more likely get them into heaven.
I don't need a babysitter that badly. (Actually, I don't have a babysitter...)
My solution would be to arrange for a get-together after church has let out...
and to be respectful of the house she is visiting if a prayer is said at the table...she sits quietly, as do I.
Charles, we just have different approaches, reaching the same basic conclusion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by friday13
Do I hear an AMEN?!
We, too, should do lunch sometimes Swedish meatballs and lingonberry sauce at IKEA
My folks weren't about to become non-religious to abide by my desire, so I figured out how I could best keep everything afloat.
(I was 14 when I had this revelation, so I've been at it awhile...) And as I've gotten older I've learned how not to be quite so bothered by it. When I flare angrily, it's for political reasons.
I love Swedish meatballs. Lingonberries rock the house. You let me know when.
@Marmac:
Ok, as for the use of devoutly, I wrote that statement at midnight. I even came out of bed and turned on the computer to write it! So I could have used a different word, but the meaning is the same. My overall point remains that children can be raised in a house full of different views (and have friends if varying faiths, etc.) and still choose for themselves what they believe. It's how you are raised a thome, with open and free discussion of what the world offers, that most influences your choices. Children who are raised to think through things for themselves will weigh all the factors eventually and pick what fits them the best.
@ friday13: Sounds good. If you don't want to pray-sing-say the pledge, then don't, but respect those who do. I think we have a similar view about this. IKEA rocks. Lingonberries do too.
@ Charles: I'm sorry if I seemed harsh. I honestly was offended by your language, by the implication that all Christians have an agenda to score points in heaven and convert non-believers. And that they're all big fakers. There are people like that, which is why I have always had problems finding a church that suits me. However, there are many of us who are not that way and would simply like your kids to come if they (and YOU) want them to. Who knows what kind of parents you are dealing with but it just really put my back up. My faith is not without doubt, therefor I do not seek to convert others to it. It is personal, and if my daughter's friend believed differently, I wouldn't care as long as she was respectful.
I do understand your concern. My daughter had a teacher once who told them the story of the "Slaughter of the Innocents." At Christmas, she asked me if I knew King Herrod tried to kill the baby Jesus? I was furious. Did I mention she was only 3 1/2? There was no indication up to that point that the teacher would do something like that. Needless to say, my daughter was out of there within a few days and into a new school where I KNEW that wouldn't happen. The new school is a church school but the message is much more universal, tolerant and age-appropriate!
Down south religion can be a thorny issue, and it is tied in to the social network. I must admit I have never lived somewhere where so many people ask what church you go to!
I hope you find the answer to your situation.
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Swedish meatballs and lingonberry sauce at IKEA 
