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This is one of your lies? What are you a concpiracy theorist? I don't have lies, I am just having a discussion. If you disagree howz about we just say, "I disagree" and lay off the drama queen-over inflated-fear mongering rhetoric.
Now, I get that you disagree and I appreciate the whole e-verifying thing. But when I look at just this forum alone, I see miles of threads about Mexicans and the immigrants themselves. I read inflammatory posts about how they are lazy, taking our taxes and our jobs, etc., etc., etc. But not much about the corperations as I talked about and defintiley not with the same amount of contempt. If people put half the energy into that aspect that they do into complaining and screaming about Mexicans, I will have no qualms believing you.
Don't come in here making demands on the other posters to adhere to your code of etiquette in here. Those of us who have been around here for awhile know what the TOS are in this forum. If you have any complaints then take them up with the moderators instead of coming in her bossing people around. So I was being a drama queen by pointing out to you that we have discussed the employers just as much as the illegals? Sounds like you have a big chip on your shoulder.
I see you are still in denial in your second paragraph about the numerous discussions we have had in here about the employers. No one has said that all illegals are lazy. There are lazy people everywhere regardless of race or status. They are taking our jobs and taxes. That is just a fact. Employers are greedy crooks and we have stated that also but you only want to hear about the latter and not the former. Why is that?
So now you know the level of our emotions against the illegals vs the employers? The problem is that you can't stand anything negative being said about the illegals at all and don't want any bad light shone on them in this issue. You want all negative attention diverted away from them. It is a typical illegal alien sympathizer tactic. By the way, if you are going to be sympathetic towards all these illegals already here and want them to be able to stay then it would be hypocritical of you not to want the other 2 billion impoverished to come here also. Afterall, what's fair is fair, right?
I repeat, it was a lie that we don't get just as outraged at the employers. If you searched the many topics in here you would know that.
Don't come in here making demands on the other posters to adhere to your code of etiquette in here. Those of us who have been around here for awhile know what the TOS are in this forum. If you have any complaints then take them up with the moderators instead of coming in her bossing people around. So I was being a drama queen by pointing out to you that we have discussed the employers just as much as the illegals? Sounds like you have a big chip on your shoulder.
I see you are still in denial in your second paragraph about the numerous discussions we have had in here about the employers. No one has said that all illegals are lazy. There are lazy people everywhere regardless of race or status. They are taking our jobs and taxes. That is just a fact. Employers are greedy crooks and we have stated that also but you only want to hear about the latter and not the former. Why is that?
So now you know the level of our emotions against the illegals vs the employers? The problem is that you can't stand anything negative being said about the illegals at all and don't want any bad light shone on them in this issue. You want all negative attention diverted away from them. It is a typical illegal alien sympathizer tactic. By the way, if you are going to be sympathetic towards all these illegals already here and want them to be able to stay then it would be hypocritical of you not to want the other 2 billion impoverished to come here also. Afterall, what's fair is fair, right?
I repeat, it was a lie that we don't get just as outraged at the employers. If you searched the many topics in here you would know that.
Oh for heaven sakes, now it's the "you're a newbie and we have been here longer" defense. Look if you prefer to keep this an exclusive country club, so be it. Of course you could always just ignore me if you think I am being an elitist bossy witch.
Yes I did say y'all were insecure. Not because of your opinion on immigration but because of the posts slandering and berating my education and the personal attacks, which I don't have to tell you are against forum rules.
I brought up anti-immigration because I was using Stoddard as a referance point for various definitions of race. I think I already explained that. As to a link on Stoddard, I apologize for assuming you were not capable of using google or an encyclopedia yourself to look up historical figures you may not be familiar with. What I learn came from college classes, not google, so I did not have a link to supply when I posted it.
Here is a segment about him from Wikipedia (though I am not fond of wiki myself as a reference, but it's the first thing that came up).
And as for the camo statment, please for heaven sakes actually read my post. I never insinuated you did that or anyone here did for that matter. But instead of me going back to quote what I said, how about you reread it and see if you can't figure out what I was trying to say for yourself. Seriously, I am not going to be an organic intellectual for you.
Don't try to backpeddle on what you meant by calling us insecure. Maybe you could point out these so-called personal attacks on you. Did you start it? That makes a big difference you know. People have the right to retaliate. Here is one of yours above. Why would you assume that I'm not "capable" of looking something up? You made the assertion about Stoddard so it is your responsibility to prove it, not mine. I will look at the link you provided and make my own judgement on whether the statements were anti-"immigrant" or not later. I have to leave now.
My advice to you would to be to keep a more civil tone in here. What you said above about my incapability of looking something up was anything but civil.
Oh for heaven sakes, now it's the "you're a newbie and we have been here longer" defense. Look if you prefer to keep this an exclusive country club, so be it. Of course you could always just ignore me if you think I am being an elitist bossy witch.
Talk about twisting other's words in here. I just said that most of us in here know the TOS because we have been around here long enough. We don't need you telliing us what they are or how we should behave. How did that statement get twisted into that we want our own private country club in here? Get that chip off your shoulder or perhaps you might want to try another forum more to your liking.
1. Why is it that I cannot just walk over to Mexico and live, expect government help, demand the right to stay, work, receive help for my children and myself, live wherever I want, drive without a license, etc., and have the government and many of the Mexican citizens rally around me in support of my RIGHT to BREAK THE LAW?
I am in school for dentistry, I will be a DDS and I still could not just walk over to Mexico and live (although I have something to offer the country and its citizens). How is this fair or okay?
Because Mexico is a country that stands by it's immigration laws.
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2. I used to live in Phoenix, AZ. I was the manager of a McDonald's in high school, and I learned spanish to better communicate with my employees and discovered that I liked the language and continued to practice it. Why is it that I chose to learn a language for the benefit of those employees but many illegal immigrants do not feel the need to learn English?
Because learning the language of the land requires a desire to assimilate.
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3. I had considered moving back to Phoenix to be near my brother. Since I have a husband and children now, I am concerned about school quality. I called my brother (who is very pro-illegal immigrant because some of them are his friends and because...well, I don't know) and asked him where in the suburbs of Phoenix could I find a district where there was not a high concentration of illegal children who don't speak much English because I don't want my child to be stuck in a class that moves more slowly in order to help children who don't understand. MY BROTHER CALLED ME RACIST AND COULDN'T UNDERSTAND WHY I FELT THAT WAY AND HUNG UP! I am so sorry that I care about my kids' education and I want them to hear the lessons in English and at a normal pace! Am I wrong for that?
You are not racist for that. Look at all the states with too many illegals, the schools are pathetic. Even California, with all the wealth, can not produce good schools.
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4. Someone in Phoenix used my SS# to work. I did not plan for this additional income in my withholding this year and now I will owe taxes. This happens to more people than me, I am sure. Is this okay?
It is okay if you like paying taxes that some one else owes.
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5. I took my cousin to the county health department for a doctor's visit. I saw many cars, pickup trucks, and SUVs that I could never afford. SOME of them were owned by people who did not speak english and came to the clinic for free or low cost health care (I can only speak for the ones I saw getting in and out of the cars and coming to the front desk "No ingles..." I will not make any further assumptions although there could have been more). Many girls had one or two or three kids waiting for the OB clinic with their medical cards, wearing nice shoes, nice purses, and gold nameplate necklaces. HOW in the HELL does that work? There are signs up in the clinic, you can apply for medicaid and foodstamps without answering questions about your immigration status...seriously? I am wrong for thinking that is a HORRIBLE policy?
You should avoid hospitals with illegals. Low budget = low quality doctors.
Yes I did say y'all were insecure. Not because of your opinion on immigration but because of the posts slandering and berating my education and the personal attacks, which I don't have to tell you are against forum rules.
I brought up anti-immigration because I was using Stoddard as a referance point for various definitions of race. I think I already explained that. As to a link on Stoddard, I apologize for assuming you were not capable of using google or an encyclopedia yourself to look up historical figures you may not be familiar with. What I learn came from college classes, not google, so I did not have a link to supply when I posted it.
Here is a segment about him from Wikipedia (though I am not fond of wiki myself as a reference, but it's the first thing that came up).
And as for the camo statment, please for heaven sakes actually read my post. I never insinuated you did that or anyone here did for that matter. But instead of me going back to quote what I said, how about you reread it and see if you can't figure out what I was trying to say for yourself. Seriously, I am not going to be an organic intellectual for you.
So if someone questions how valid your education is that means that they are insecure? Who slandered your education?
I have been to a few Multicultural/Diversity classes in my day. When you work for a big corporation it is required. Unfortunately those they have teach have little practical experience.
For example. The woman teaching Diversity 1 was trying to explain to us what minorities were really like. I asked a question and I'll ask the same question of you. Have you ever lived with 24/7 slept ate, and worked with mixed minorities for an extended time? For example 9 months without escape, break, or change? Her answer was no. I then asked then how do you know what you are telling us is true? She couldn't give a definite answer. I will tell you 95% of what they were teaching was idealistic hogwash. I lived 24/7 ate slept and worked with all races. We got along about as well as anyone would on board a nuclear aircraft carrier. In other words most the time just fine.
In my life experience very little of what is taught in a classroom translates well to real life. In this case the idealistic hogwash didn't factor in that everyone regardless of race or gender is unique and an individual.
I am not insecure for questioning how legitimate your views as a teacher are, I am a realist.
You did in fact explain your position well. I simply disagree.
I don't believe that our immigration system is impossible. It is redundant, it is a pain in the butt and it is used as a filter. We allow more immigration than all other nations combined. How much more open does it need to be.
Expensive? Define expensive. If they can't afford application fees then how will they afford to live here until they find a job?
I love Thailand. That is where my wife is from. For me to apply for a Permanent VISA I need 50G in a Thai bank. Now that's expensive.
Most countries don't worry about American tourists or visitors because its a good bet we will leave when we are supposed to. People from a poor nation or running away from a nation have proven themselves less than trust worthy. Obama's Aunt for example.
We need to screen every applicant, we need to set a high bench mark for what is acceptable. We don't need unskilled labor. We produce a bumper crop of those thanks to a lousy public school system.
We don't need people who can not read, write or speak the common language.
My wife for example speaks 5 languages, has a degree in business and in marketing. Are you saying that it is unfair for her to be considered a better risk than an illiterate with no education? If anything our system isn't rigerous enough.
A couple of points:
1st of all, this is a forum - this means this is a place for debate. In this particular case, about illegal immigration. I know there are plenty that treat this place as their personal vent/rant space, but that's not what it should be.
2nd - If i see one more grammar/spelling post I swear to God it will earn the person that posted it a week long time off. This is completely off topic, personal and derails threads. Unless the post illegible because of the mistakes, they're not an issue.
3rd - the way I see it, people have the right to their own opinions, regardless of how ignorant/misinformed/simply silly they might be, as long as they're posting in a respectful and polite matter. Even the best, most logical and stunningly accurate post will get deleted if it is a personal attack.
4th - I can see this has turned into the usual back and forth, so I'd like to ask everyone to get back on topic.
Yac.
How about not stereotyping anyone and treating everyone as an individual. Hmmmmm?
By the way, I am against illegal immigration. But I am more so against a screwed up immigration system that is prejudice and impossible and then placing the entire blame on people who are desperate. I am more against companies who take advantage of people who are here illegally in order to make a huge profit of the backs of their desperation. When those issues get fixed, then I'll start placing the blame and hatred on the people who are just trying to feed their families. How about that? Hmmmm?
I don;t buy that this issue is about the legality and not race. When I see US citizens in camo with guns hunting down compaines who are illegaly profiteering off the backs of desperate people rather then mothers crossing the border, then I will say it's not about racism and about legal issues. When I see American citizens in the stree picketting said companies, then I will say it's about legality and not racism.
Until that day comes, I'm not that ignorant to buy the "it's just cause they are illegal" arguement. Sorry.
Granted, we should not prejudge. However, as human beings, we are all guilty of prejudging others based on our individual life experiences and our resultant perception of others. When you see a woman standing on a corner dressed provocatively in an area known for prostitution, would you assume she is probably waiting for a cab or a ride from a friend, or would you assume she’s a hooker?
I could have missed it, but I don’t recall a post in which you explained “how” our immigration system is prejudiced or impossible. Would you mind expounding?
I believe we would all like to see more punitive actions against illegal employers. However, as citizens, we can’t arbitrarily target companies. We must first have concrete evidence to prove they’re violating laws. Perhaps you missed the following post.
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Originally Posted by Benicar
BTW, how would you suggest we identify illegal employers? If you have a foolproof method, I would certainly be interested.
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Originally Posted by culturedmom
Y'all are the most insecure group I have come across on this board. Goodness, an educated woman comes along to debate the other side and you all attack like wolves. If it's not being called foolish through the use of country lyrics, then it's my education that's ruffled your frilly panties. I'm not sure which whinny post to respond to first. Not that it matters cause some of you don't really read what I say anyhoo and it's obvious your just label hungry (pro-illegal's...what the heck is that?).
Oh and chicagonut, Stoddard considered himself an anti-immigrationist, so what nonsense are you referring to? Maybe before y'all start espousing this ideology, you should atleast become a little knowledgable about where it came from, no?
The assumption being, that an “educated woman” has never graced this forum, and that opposing comments prior to yours, were made by uneducated posters. Your comments are condescending, and beyond irrelevant.
Again, you are assuming we espouse his theory without having a snippet of proof. Prejudge much?
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Originally Posted by culturedmom
They funny thing is, I never called anyone racist. It's hard to debate people who have such poor reading comprehension skills.
Why not rephrase your comments for clarification, rather than insulting posters? That is generally what an educated woman would do. When you instruct your students and they misinterpret the lecture, don’t you at least attempt to elucidate? Or, do you bash them for their lack of comprehension skills?
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Originally Posted by culturedmom
To the bolded, that may be so in your opinion, but you can't debate in generalizations. You have to debate what people actually say. Should I generalize you as the anti-immigration crowd? Or shoudl I take you at your word for just being someone who believes that immigrants should come here legally?
Aren’t your following comments a generalization?
Maybe before y'all start espousing this ideology, you should atleast become a little knowledgable about where it came from, no?
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Originally Posted by culturedmom
Again, never said that. As to the food stamp point...in what country are illegal immigrants eligible to get food stamps? The USDA 2008 breakdown of food stamp recipients by ethnicity is as follows...
The only tax money I can think of that goes directly to the aid of illegal immigrants is possibly the use of county hospitals and their children's use of our public schools. For the public school point, it is thier children that are using it and our laws as of now state that you are a citizen if born on US soil. You may not like that law, but since you seem to be very adament about legal issues, that si the law as it is now. So I doubt that public schooling is being hijacked by illegal immigrant children.
So that leaves county hospitals. Considering illegal immigrants are constantly worried about being deported, it is very rare they seek medical help unless it is an emergency. However, Republicans seem to believe (and let's take them at their word for sake of argument) that the high cost of medical care stems from law suits and malpractice insurance. Well, illegal immigrants cannot sue in most states. And even in those like New York wher they are said to be able to file a civil lawsuit, the fear again of deportation is way too high.
I think I answered that already. But again, for the third time just in case you missed it. I don't think breaking the law is alright. I don't think we should have open borders either. What I do think it that the only way to control this issue is to crack down on the reasons they feel it is advantagious to come here int he first place. To me, the companies that profit off the backs of desperate peoples is where most of the blame lies. Yet I don't hear the outrage to that.
Eligibility is irrelevant. Aren’t illegal aliens “ineligible” to work in this country? Yet, an estimated 8 million are employed. The same fraudulent methods used to gain employment, driver’s licenses, etc., are also used to avail themselves of benefits reserved for citizens and legal residents. Furthermore, illegal aliens do in fact “legally” receive welfare, including food stamps, on behalf of their U.S.-born children, which ultimately is a benefit for the entire family.
It is well-documented that public school education for illegal alien children is one of the most costly tax burdens (billions annually) of all costs associated with illegal immigration.
The astronomical medical costs related to illegal immigration is also well-documented. This includes organ transplants, kidney dialysis, and long-term intensive care. In fact, Grady Memorial Hospital in Atlanta was forced to close their dialysis clinic due to illegal immigration, after having served the indigent community for over 100 years. In my opinion, that’s a tragedy.
There are numerous lawsuits by illegal aliens, including trespassers who sued a rancher for assault, lawsuits against hospitals for discontinuing “free” treatment, and discrimination lawsuits, to name a few. Most recently, an admitted illegal and ID thief, Nicky Diaz, sued Meg Whitman for unpaid wages. Not only did she appear on national TV, a labor union is championing her cause. It’s a myth that illegals are living in the shadows. In fact, their exposure results in automatic star status, and MSNBC and CNN vie for their interviews.
Most of our outrage is equally distributed between the government, employers, and illegals, as well as the Mexican governement. However, I have yet to see a company brazenly admit to employing illegals. Nor have I ever seen a CEO protest in our streets demanding we embrace their illegal employment practices. Moreover, I started a thread in which I suggested we (anti/pro) join forces against the employers of illegal aliens. I even posted a website containing a list of “suspected” illegal employers. Guess what? I was ridiculed by illegal alien sympathizers, and accused of launching an “unfair” attack against “innocent” employers. Again, I ask, how would you suggest we identify illegal employers?
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Originally Posted by culturedmom
This is one of your lies? What are you a concpiracy theorist? I don't have lies, I am just having a discussion. If you disagree howz about we just say, "I disagree" and lay off the drama queen-over inflated-fear mongering rhetoric.
Now, I get that you disagree and I appreciate the whole e-verifying thing. But when I look at just this forum alone, I see miles of threads about Mexicans and the immigrants themselves. I read inflammatory posts about how they are lazy, taking our taxes and our jobs, etc., etc., etc. But not much about the corperations as I talked about and defintiley not with the same amount of contempt. If people put half the energy into that aspect that they do into complaining and screaming about Mexicans, I will have no qualms believing you.
The majority of the illegal alien population is comprised of Mexicans. Naturally, they will receive the lion’s share of attention. However, this is the Illegal Immigration Forum, and 99.9% of discussions pertain to illegal aliens. Therefore, you have NOT seen “miles of threads” in which the topic was “immigrants” in general.
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Originally Posted by culturedmom
Yes I did say y'all were insecure. Not because of your opinion on immigration but because of the posts slandering and berating my education and the personal attacks, which I don't have to tell you are against forum rules.
I brought up anti-immigration because I was using Stoddard as a referance point for various definitions of race. I think I already explained that. As to a link on Stoddard, I apologize for assuming you were not capable of using google or an encyclopedia yourself to look up historical figures you may not be familiar with. What I learn came from college classes, not google, so I did not have a link to supply when I posted it.
And as for the camo statment, please for heaven sakes actually read my post. I never insinuated you did that or anyone here did for that matter. But instead of me going back to quote what I said, how about you reread it and see if you can't figure out what I was trying to say for yourself. Seriously, I am not going to be an organic intellectual for you.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I do believe it was YOU who introduced your “education” and “intellect” into this debate.
Of course, I can only speak for myself, but my college education is only one source of my knowledge base. Furthermore, I know plenty of people who never stepped foot on a college campus who know more about life, and are more “educated” than most doctorate candidates.
Organic intellectual?
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I am so sorry that I care about my kids' education and I want them to hear the lessons in English and at a normal pace! Am I wrong for that?
