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Rather than get into a 'cat fight' here going over the fine points of anti-illegal sentiment in US society...(or the lack of it....or why it makes sense, or doesn't), perhaps we could look at anti-illegal sentiment in this society by comparing it with a similar dynamic in another society.
Let's use Mexico....it's nearby, furnishes the bulk of our present-day illegals, is usually cited on these forums, has a LONG history with the US, and is probably a good country to use in this type of comparison.
Each year Mexico experiences a massive invasion of rowdy, not-too-responsible young Americans in its annual 'Spring Break' rite at many coastal resort communities. These folks may be fine as individuals, but as a huge group could probably be charitably described as loud, boisterous, and nearly totally insensitive to Mexican culture and norms. Relatively few of them speak Spanish; few show any interest in Mexico as a nation. They're there not to 'fit in', but to party, drink, get 'crazy', and generally do things they can't get away with at home.
In accomodating all this, the local Mexicans have had to make choices. Many are forced to pick up at least SOME English, in order to work in this 'industry'. Law enforcement is forced to deal with the rowdies, and I'm sure many low-level resort employees find themselves dealing with a certain amount of disrspect and insensitivity from these 'guests'. I'm sure the word 'obnoxious' wouldn't be too much of a stretch in describing at least SOME of thess foreigners who invade Mexico each year.
We do know that all-in-all, the local Mexicans tolerate the situation fairly well, manage to act graciously toward these outsiders, and that the experience is GENERALLY a positive one, with little apparent 'anti-tourist' sentiment resulting.
WHY do Mexicans seem so receptive to this crowd of noisy foreign revelers, and why don't more people resent them, their disinterest in the 'real' Mexico, and their disruptive presence? In my opinion, for TWO reasons:
(1) These young people may be obnoxious, but they bring a TON of money into the local economy. Entire INDUSTRIES rely on them, and people like them, for thousands upon thousands of jobs. The injection of 'dollars' into the area is easy to see, affects 'real people', and the results, economically, are pretty visible...despite any reservations people might otherwise have.
(2) More importantly, perhaps, is that regardless of how boorish and oafish some of these 'party animals' may be, everyone is acutely aware of the fact that sooner or later, when the money runs out, these people are GOING HOME!! They are a 'temporary' invasion, their presence is highly transitory, and they present no permanent 'burden' on Mexican society. They make no permanent demands, either.
WE may well ask ourselves, what would happen if this huge invasion of unassimilated foreigners (gringo college kids), arrived one year not 'flush with cash', but broke and penniless? What if they had no money to 'spread around', but instead looked for jobs...or even social services? What if, instead of 'going home' in a week, thousands of them decided to STAY in Mexico...defying the locals and making clear that "we're here, and you CAN'T get rid of us....so just get used to us".
My gut feeling is that if that happened, we MIGHT see a huge uprising of 'anti-illegal' sentiment among the Mexican population....in fact, I'd almost bet on it. Would we then say the Mexicans were 'racist'..or 'xenophobic'...or 'nativist'? Maybe...but I think mostly we'd realize they just resented their country being invaded by outsiders who had no desire anytime soon to ever 'become Mexicans', but who just wanted to stay for the benefits, and because they 'could'.
Perhaps by considering the above hypothetical scenario, we could better understand the anti-illegal sentiments here...where large numbers of 'outsiders' arrive, with NO money to offer our economy, NO visible benefit to our society, NO plans to return home, and NO interest in assimilating to 'our' society, however you want to define that term. The above situation in Mexico was hypothetical; the situation here is quite real.
With the issue of education, if we don't educate...then that is a net drain of billions of dollars. A 2007 UCSB Gervitz School of Education (my alma mater! Go Gauchos!) study showed that the state of CA lost $46 billion annually due to high school dropouts.
The fastest growing segment of high school dropouts are illegal immgrants. Unfortunately, shools with high numbers of illegal immigrants are schools with the lowest funding levels. Thus, legal residents are also left out in the cold. Funds aren't going to where they are needed (the inner cities and rural poor).
Education will have a net postive financially. Higher education levels means more purchasing power. In our consumer based economy, this is good thing.
So this thread was started so that the pro illegal apologiser/sympathiser thread starter with an agenda could provide non sensical propagandistic answers for all of the countless reasons for anti illegal sentiment?
Some of us simply have a strong sense of right and wrong.
We should never reward a cheat for cheating. We should never reward criminal behavior. Should we give speeders a bonus for driving 50mph over the limit?
Should we give police a pass if they accept bribes? NO
Illegals made a choice. A simple choice really. Their options were simple.
Apply to enter legally or ignore our laws and take their chances.
They opted for ignoring our laws. Their choice. With this choice comes acceptance of consequences.
I don't fear illegals. I fear what happens if we reward the 21 million or whatever number are actually here. This sends the message that we will not hold our ground and enforce our laws. The amnesty of 1986 has lead us to our current crisis. Another will deliver the same results.
My mom was almost illegal once. It almost destroyed my family. We were living in Saudi Arabia and visiting family in the states. My mom was not American, she had her green card but was an Ivorian national. The consulate lost her paperwork. Thus, she was almost stuck in the US...but we lived in Saudi. Fortunately after much hard work, my dad got the situation taken care of.
My point in this is that it's not always black and white. That really its shades of gray. Some illegal immigrants don't have the means to enter legally. Some do.
If we look at the larger global economic structure, the situation of illegal immigration becomes more nebulous stil...
<<Unfortunately, shools with high numbers of illegal immigrants are schools with the lowest funding levels. >>
That's probably becaue schools are funded, in most areas, largely with property tax. A county which has a lot of low earning illegal aliens doesn't collect, and therefore doesn't have, as much money to spend on schools. I suppose you think a little wealth redistribution would be in order, but why should people who pay a higher tax have funding for their schools cut, thereby denying their children a better education?
As to your question about anti-illegal sentiment, IMO we liked our countery the way it was. Of course there's the job loss, and social services illegal aliens avail themselves of, which are important, but I think there's a more basic reason at play too. When hundreds, or thousands, of illegal aliens move in, they change the whole demographic. To focus on Hispanics, since they're the most prevalent, the places where they settle no longer look like, feel like, or sound our country. They look like Tijuana, feel like a foreign country, and the sounds of mariachi music, and Spanish, fill the air. It just doesn't seem like home anymore. If I wanted to live in Latin America, I would have moved there.
Rather than get into a 'cat fight' here going over the fine points of anti-illegal sentiment in US society...(or the lack of it....or why it makes sense, or doesn't), perhaps we could look at anti-illegal sentiment in this society by comparing it with a similar dynamic in another society.
Let's use Mexico....it's nearby, furnishes the bulk of our present-day illegals, is usually cited on these forums, has a LONG history with the US, and is probably a good country to use in this type of comparison.
Each year Mexico experiences a massive invasion of rowdy, not-too-responsible young Americans in its annual 'Spring Break' rite at many coastal resort communities. These folks may be fine as individuals, but as a huge group could probably be charitably described as loud, boisterous, and nearly totally insensitive to Mexican culture and norms. Relatively few of them speak Spanish; few show any interest in Mexico as a nation. They're there not to 'fit in', but to party, drink, get 'crazy', and generally do things they can't get away with at home.
In accomodating all this, the local Mexicans have had to make choices. Many are forced to pick up at least SOME English, in order to work in this 'industry'. Law enforcement is forced to deal with the rowdies, and I'm sure many low-level resort employees find themselves dealing with a certain amount of disrspect and insensitivity from these 'guests'. I'm sure the word 'obnoxious' wouldn't be too much of a stretch in describing at least SOME of thess foreigners who invade Mexico each year.
We do know that all-in-all, the local Mexicans tolerate the situation fairly well, manage to act graciously toward these outsiders, and that the experience is GENERALLY a positive one, with little apparent 'anti-tourist' sentiment resulting.
WHY do Mexicans seem so receptive to this crowd of noisy foreign revelers, and why don't more people resent them, their disinterest in the 'real' Mexico, and their disruptive presence? In my opinion, for TWO reasons:
(1) These young people may be obnoxious, but they bring a TON of money into the local economy. Entire INDUSTRIES rely on them, and people like them, for thousands upon thousands of jobs. The injection of 'dollars' into the area is easy to see, affects 'real people', and the results, economically, are pretty visible...despite any reservations people might otherwise have.
(2) More importantly, perhaps, is that regardless of how boorish and oafish some of these 'party animals' may be, everyone is acutely aware of the fact that sooner or later, when the money runs out, these people are GOING HOME!! They are a 'temporary' invasion, their presence is highly transitory, and they present no permanent 'burden' on Mexican society. They make no permanent demands, either.
WE may well ask ourselves, what would happen if this huge invasion of unassimilated foreigners (gringo college kids), arrived one year not 'flush with cash', but broke and penniless? What if they had no money to 'spread around', but instead looked for jobs...or even social services? What if, instead of 'going home' in a week, thousands of them decided to STAY in Mexico...defying the locals and making clear that "we're here, and you CAN'T get rid of us....so just get used to us".
My gut feeling is that if that happened, we MIGHT see a huge uprising of 'anti-illegal' sentiment among the Mexican population....in fact, I'd almost bet on it. Would we then say the Mexicans were 'racist'..or 'xenophobic'...or 'nativist'? Maybe...but I think mostly we'd realize they just resented their country being invaded by outsiders who had no desire anytime soon to ever 'become Mexicans', but who just wanted to stay for the benefits, and because they 'could'.
Perhaps by considering the above hypothetical scenario, we could better understand the anti-illegal sentiments here...where large numbers of 'outsiders' arrive, with NO money to offer our economy, NO visible benefit to our society, NO plans to return home, and NO interest in assimilating to 'our' society, however you want to define that term. The above situation in Mexico was hypothetical; the situation here is quite real.
excellent post however you lost me with the last paragraph and this sentence in particular.
where large numbers of 'outsiders' arrive, with NO money to offer our economy, NO visible benefit to our society, NO plans to return home, and NO interest in assimilating to 'our' society
this could be applied to the homeless population, an entire group of people with a percentage that really does nothing to change their life for the better. which is an over simplified explanation of a very complex problem. it does not take into account the problems or any solution, just points out a generalization.
There is no true census of even a close approximation of the number of illegals we have in the us. I have seen in this folder alone guesses of 12, 22 and 30 million. who really knows? I am sure it is a lot and it is a drain on some of our services.
illegals/hispanics problems have given many people an excuse to engage their personal bias/bigotry. The bias is so much that when ever they see a hispanic speaking spanish or just out and about doing their daily life it is assumed they are illegal. which makes it easy to see an entire race of people living in our country as something to be despised. to assume that all or even most hispanics are illegal is wrong. to be disgruntled that we have stores and signs in spainsh in a country full of immigrants seems a bit reactionary.
the problems are not going to go away, as long as the US has more opportunity and to become legal stays as hard as it is we will always have the problem. many, many hispanics legal or not live a poor to middle class life. how big a crime is that? people who go to work to feed their family and make a better life for their children then they had is what every parent wants.
the crime of crossing illegally is a misdemeanor not a felony as I am sure some would wish it was. is it wrong yes, but the hispanics that work picking strawberries in the dirt fields of ca. that live a life of poverty I have no problem with what so ever. any person hispanic or not that instead of finding a job turns to a life of crime is another thing. these threads seem not to distingush nor acknowledge the difference, which breeds and encourages bigotry.
I think the problem is more the percentage of the illegal that does turn to real crime that makes life hard for the decent hispanic that just wants a better life.
<<Unfortunately, shools with high numbers of illegal immigrants are schools with the lowest funding levels. >>
That's probably becaue schools are funded, in most areas, largely with property tax. A county which has a lot of low earning illegal aliens doesn't collect, and therefore doesn't have, as much money to spend on schools. I suppose you think a little wealth redistribution would be in order, but why should people who pay a higher tax have funding for their schools cut, thereby denying their children a better education?
As to your question about anti-illegal sentiment, IMO we liked our countery the way it was. Of course there's the job loss, and social services illegal aliens avail themselves of, which are important, but I think there's a more basic reason at play too. When hundreds, or thousands, of illegal aliens move in, they change the whole demographic. To focus on Hispanics, since they're the most prevalent, the places where they settle no longer look like, feel like, or sound our country. They look like Tijuana, feel like a foreign country, and the sounds of mariachi music, and Spanish, fill the air. It just doesn't seem like home anymore. If I wanted to live in Latin America, I would have moved there.
Simply put the illegal Mexican invasion is creating "Little 3rd world Mexicos" throughout the US.
Rather than get into a 'cat fight' here going over the fine points of anti-illegal sentiment in US society...(or the lack of it....or why it makes sense, or doesn't), perhaps we could look at anti-illegal sentiment in this society by comparing it with a similar dynamic in another society.
Let's use Mexico....it's nearby, furnishes the bulk of our present-day illegals, is usually cited on these forums, has a LONG history with the US, and is probably a good country to use in this type of comparison.
Each year Mexico experiences a massive invasion of rowdy, not-too-responsible young Americans in its annual 'Spring Break' rite at many coastal resort communities. These folks may be fine as individuals, but as a huge group could probably be charitably described as loud, boisterous, and nearly totally insensitive to Mexican culture and norms. Relatively few of them speak Spanish; few show any interest in Mexico as a nation. They're there not to 'fit in', but to party, drink, get 'crazy', and generally do things they can't get away with at home.
In accomodating all this, the local Mexicans have had to make choices. Many are forced to pick up at least SOME English, in order to work in this 'industry'. Law enforcement is forced to deal with the rowdies, and I'm sure many low-level resort employees find themselves dealing with a certain amount of disrspect and insensitivity from these 'guests'. I'm sure the word 'obnoxious' wouldn't be too much of a stretch in describing at least SOME of thess foreigners who invade Mexico each year.
We do know that all-in-all, the local Mexicans tolerate the situation fairly well, manage to act graciously toward these outsiders, and that the experience is GENERALLY a positive one, with little apparent 'anti-tourist' sentiment resulting.
WHY do Mexicans seem so receptive to this crowd of noisy foreign revelers, and why don't more people resent them, their disinterest in the 'real' Mexico, and their disruptive presence? In my opinion, for TWO reasons:
(1) These young people may be obnoxious, but they bring a TON of money into the local economy. Entire INDUSTRIES rely on them, and people like them, for thousands upon thousands of jobs. The injection of 'dollars' into the area is easy to see, affects 'real people', and the results, economically, are pretty visible...despite any reservations people might otherwise have.
(2) More importantly, perhaps, is that regardless of how boorish and oafish some of these 'party animals' may be, everyone is acutely aware of the fact that sooner or later, when the money runs out, these people are GOING HOME!! They are a 'temporary' invasion, their presence is highly transitory, and they present no permanent 'burden' on Mexican society. They make no permanent demands, either.
WE may well ask ourselves, what would happen if this huge invasion of unassimilated foreigners (gringo college kids), arrived one year not 'flush with cash', but broke and penniless? What if they had no money to 'spread around', but instead looked for jobs...or even social services? What if, instead of 'going home' in a week, thousands of them decided to STAY in Mexico...defying the locals and making clear that "we're here, and you CAN'T get rid of us....so just get used to us".
My gut feeling is that if that happened, we MIGHT see a huge uprising of 'anti-illegal' sentiment among the Mexican population....in fact, I'd almost bet on it. Would we then say the Mexicans were 'racist'..or 'xenophobic'...or 'nativist'? Maybe...but I think mostly we'd realize they just resented their country being invaded by outsiders who had no desire anytime soon to ever 'become Mexicans', but who just wanted to stay for the benefits, and because they 'could'.
Perhaps by considering the above hypothetical scenario, we could better understand the anti-illegal sentiments here...where large numbers of 'outsiders' arrive, with NO money to offer our economy, NO visible benefit to our society, NO plans to return home, and NO interest in assimilating to 'our' society, however you want to define that term. The above situation in Mexico was hypothetical; the situation here is quite real.
EXCELLENT! This is one of, if not THE best post I’ve read in a very long time. It is certainly worthy of repeating. Sadly, once again, it will fall on deaf, agenda-driven ears.
It seems to me that there are two driving factors that lead people to become passionate against illegal immigration.
Fear and nationalism.
While a healthy dose of both is not bad, do you think that it is a possibility that some have gone too far? That possibly arguments of becoming a third world nation and solutions of militarization of the border are slightly extreme? Some say that extreme actions must be taken (deportation, militarization, etc.) Do you feel this way? If so, why?
Mannnnnnnnn, it is so disrespectful and sad to see people who actually tell themselves this and believe it. Are you kidding me? Have you read anything here or even taken the responsibility of actually researching this issue before trying to stereotype and generalize all people who are passionately or not passionately against illegal immigration (or at least the huge illegal immigration that we have in the United States)? You have to be the responsible critic, research and be non-biased and open enough to really hear what everyone is saying.
I have to say that I am what I would consider to be a well-read, educated-on-this-topic, experienced-in-this-topic Black American female who comes into this discussion with first-hand knowledge and individual views. You and other people like you who automatically label those who oppose illegal immigration and all that has come with it in the United States as rednecks, bigots, racists, xenophobic or being afraid. Where I am coming from on this is having actually noticed and felt the effects of illegal immigration that has swallowed a hometown in many ways.
We are a diverse group of people, us against illegal immigration and the surrounding issues, and we all have our reasons. Some of us are well-educated in the area and spend a lot of time educating ourselves on the topic, covering both sides. Most, if not all, want the laws enforced and for the enforcement and efforts of agencies to be readdressed. Regardless of who is who, all have a right to be against illegal immigration.
Basically, the spectrum of those against illegal immigration is VARIED and LARGE. You have people from all backgrounds, educational levels, nationalities (people who are legal immigrants to the US also have expressed their feelings about illegal immigration) and ages. (Soon, the US youth is going to realize even more just how illegal immigration is affecting them.) So, no one can try to generalize those who oppose illegal immigration. That is a powerful thing for the voice of those against illegal immigration. We can show that we all have been affected by it and that it is not just "bigoted white people" who are fighting illegal immigration.
There is fear and there is nationalism, but those are not the only motivating factors. Also, what is so wrong with those things? You better be afraid when millions of undocumented people are able to work and reside in your country (yes, "your" country). It's not like immigration calls for millions of extra people to come into the country to live in and work. You also should be afraid when millions of undocumented and accounted-for people that are migrating to work here are attempting to work in the workforce of US citizens and legal residents. Also, knowing that those who come in are unskilled and uneducated and how that leads to more poverty. Then you are afraid that your city is being ran down by that unnecessary poverty (immigration is not supposed to be about shipping in thousands or millions of already impoverished people into a city or town) and the budget is being strained when it should not have been.
Yes, there is a fear.
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