Street Car & Commuter Rail in Jax SOON! (Jacksonville, Springfield: foreclosure, city hall)

[jsimms3]

Originally Posted by Robyn55

So - at age 22 (I think that's how old you've mentioned you are) - you know it all. Reckon I did at your age too . And apparently you've known everything since you were in diapers in 1988 .

<<My parents agreed to take a train, and agreed to a bus, but for them it depends who is on that bus or train, especially if they are going to be dressed.>>

What's with that? You mean if there are green people with 2 heads on the bus or the train - your parents won't deign to use the transportation? Or what about AA people - or Hispanic people - or Jews - or even Catholics? I've lived in this metro area for 15 years as an adult - not an infant - and I can tell you that these stuck up WASP attitudes that are prevalent in parts of town are a huge negative in terms of metro area development. At least here in PVB - we are equal opportunity. All you need is money - and no one much cares about your social or ethnic pedigree. Robyn

You are bringing this waayyyy off topic and making it personal. Not surprised. You know I have said they are happy to take a train in (then you asked about a stupid bus to pick up people for an event on a transportation thread) and now you keep harping on this opera idea which I brought up once as an example of something 50-something year olds might be interested in taking public transit for. If the train is filled with gross people (doesn't matter their skin color or whether they are Catholic which my dad's family is mostly Catholic you imbecile and I have family in Colombia and half-Cuban cousins) then they would not want to be wearing their nice dress/tux in that environment. I don't think anyone would, even people who are normally gross and sweaty want to remain fresh and clean if they get decked up. You often resort to nasty assumptions when you run out of steam in a debate.

There are many things I don't know about, and I am far from a public transit/rail expert, but you are so much further from an expert in this area as you have demonstrated that you really shouldn't put it down or talk about it without examining more facts and looking at all sides of the issue. You constantly describe myself and others on this board as "viewing rail as the end all be all to all problems without any examination of cost and potential waste of money" but in reality people who want rail know that there are different forms of rail and they can go different places. The right form going the right place with the right headways and the right fees can really do more wonders than you seem to realize or want to realize.

PS: I must reiterate, just for fun I am taking a class titled "Urban Transportation" this semester. This isn't a topic I follow loosely and form some baseless opinion on. I have ridden enough subway systems in this country to see what they do for their respective cities. I started looking at what smaller cities were doing for public transit (also after having ridden Buffalo's LRT), and I saw a lot going on and read about all the TOD's (which I had already been fairly familiar with because I know a few big time developers), and then obviously MetroJacksonville has a few members who are in the field and put out article after article on these systems and their impacts. They even look at failed systems to analyze why they failed. This isn't something where I am just going to pipe in my thoughts and some of my research because I want to say something (which it sounds like in your case). The person who started this thread is interested, some other people are interested, I am interested, and then you come in and completely storm on everyone for basically no reason and without any factual backup.

PSS: Who is the stuck up one anyway, those of us, myself included, who want more public transportation, or you who lives in a gated community in Ponte Vedra who doesn't want more public transportation for a city you don't technically live in or an area you don't even live nearby to?

I am done debating you, when I see an interesting article and have the time I will post it and hoepfully others will continue to do the same. Let's get back on track so this thread isn't shut down.

[nancy thereader]

Please keep insulting comments to yourselves so that this thread does not need to be closed. Several people have complained about the continued insults. Remember that you may attack the post but NOT the person who posted. Thank you.

[fsu813]

The original topic was about how cool it for Jax finally, FINALLY getting with the program here and planning commuter rail to/from city & suburbs and trolley, REAL trolley, throughout the downtown-ish neighborhoods.

[Robyn55]

Is there any reason a "real" trolley is better than the kind of "fake" trolley we have out here at the Beaches?

Jacksonville's Beaches Trolley returns in spring - with some changes | jacksonville.com

[fsu813]

Yes.

This old thread will be enlightening for you:

S.P.A.R. COMPLETELY DERAILED - MASSIVE SPAR DEVELOPMENT | Metro Jacksonville Forum

[fsu813]

Another week, another great step in seeing Jacksonville finally embrace urban living, and street cars / commute rail is one of the big steps:

And here it is:

Streetcars: Part of Downtown’s past, may be part of the future

http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/~jaxdaily/articles/09_22_10/4a.jpg (broken link)

by Max Marbut

Staff Writer

If you live or work Downtown or in the surrounding historic neighborhoods, there might be a new mode of mass transportation in your future.

The Jacksonville Transportation Authority has revived a plan to consider streetcar lines from the urban core to Springfield, Brooklyn, LaVilla, Riverside, Southbank and San Marco.

Those areas are the focus of a study, published in September 2008, which is the working document for the current conversation. They were served by streetcars in the early 20th century.

“We have looked at the national situation and what other cities are doing,” said JTA Regional Transportation Planner James Boyle.

The study states that as Jacksonville becomes more urban, congestion will increase, enhancing the value of mass transit to consumers. As more people use public transportation, the Bus Rapid Transit system, for example, they will travel from outlying areas to the Regional Transportation Center near the Osborn Center. However, the study states, once riders reach the transit center or their last stop, there is a need to complete “the last mile of the trip.”

Another motivation for more mass transit options making short trips in and out of Downtown has been the success of the Riverside Trolley. More than three years ago, it began carrying passengers between Downtown and 5 Points during the workweek lunch hour. The service was recently expanded to include a longer route and Saturday service to accommodate riders to the Riverside Arts Market.

Boyle said the Riverside Trolley has helped spark interest in streetcars.
“It has proven there is a market for short trips,” said Boyle.

(full story at link)

Downtown Today - The Daily Record - Jacksonville, Florida

[KerryB]

So, they've REVIVED a PLAN to CONSIDER street cars have they?? How exactly does this = "Jacksonville finally embracing urban living & street cars" again??

I think you want this so bad that it's making you delusional & seeing stuff that isn't there.

[fsu813]

if you know something about this........all signs point it happening.

All signs =)

So it's really not a question of IF, but just how soon?

The 2030 Mobility plan says AT LEAST with in 5 years, and I think that's pretty accurate. =) =)

The city is watsing it's 200k on the study, though. It's common sense what it will find: YES, street car would be utilized and become very popular. Just as the faux Riverside Trolley has (just expanded due to demand).

Very good news indeed. =) =) =)

[Joe 4520832257]

@KerryB

Despite FSU813's penchant for city-boosting, he's spot-on with this. The Jax streetcar plan (yes, there's a formal study) is top-notch. It has a good route plan that actually takes people places they want to go. It has a good financing plan. It has an aggressive timetable. I'm all for it.

@ Robyn

Originally Posted by Robyn55

Is there any reason a "real" trolley is better than the kind of "fake" trolley we have out here at the Beaches?

Good question. Short-ish answer is YES, for the following reasons:

1) Modern streetcars can transport more people, run faster routes (b/c easier boarding makes shorter headways), and have a much smoother ride. So in a place where transit demand already exists, streetcars are the clear choice.

2) Rail infrastructure is PERMANENT. People who aren't real estate / planning nerds understandably have a tough time with this concept, but I cannot overstress the importance of infrastructure permanence.

A developer isn't going to build a building b/c of a bus route that can be moved at a moment's notice. Developers will build near rail lines (and do so with amazing gusto) because the rail is a transportation amenity that is not going away. More important, the permanence of a rail line allows the city to change its zoning code. Since the rail is permanent, the city can reduce minimum parking requirements and increase allowable densities. This creates more profitable buildings for developers and more tax revenue for the city.

3) Rail is a fundamentally different infrastructure from a road. Roads support one type of development style - rail another. Mixing the typologies allows a city to maximize it's potential building uses and enhance it's tax base. Nothing happens when you run a new bus line through an urban area. When you run a new rail line through an urban area, there is usually an explosion of new construction because you've created a different type of capacity.

** The caveat here is that streetcars are for neighborhoods that are either 1) already at urban densities, or 2) want to grow into urban densities. So for a place like Ponte Vedra or Argyle Forest or whatever, you should use the "fake" trolley because they don't want the high density, mixed-use development that a rail line makes possible. For places like San Marco, Riverside, Springfield, Downtown, etc, a modern streetcar would be amazing and probably spur massive development and tax-base increases.

[jsimms3]

Originally Posted by Joe 4520832257

Good question. Short-ish answer is YES, for the following reasons:

Good explanation, +1. (have to spread it around first)