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What is your take on israel being a state and Zionism.
I think that Arabs have done an excellent job on complete fabrication of many facts.
Fact: Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East.
Fact: Muslims have more rights in Israel than in ANY other Middle East country.
Fact: Over 800,000 Jews were expelled from Arab countries after WWII (not counting at all the ones who were either killed or refused back into their homes AFTER WWII). All of those Jews have settled elsewhere. The Arabs (most of whom left the former state of Palestine because they were ordered to by other Arabs) hung on because they were much more valuable as self-imposed victims rather than try to make their homes elsewhere, like Jews did.
Fact: The vast majority of the former Palestine IS Muslim. Nearly 80% of Palestine was made into Transjordan (later called Jordan) in the early 1920s. The remaining sliver was carved up into two nations called Israel and Palestine by the United Nations after WWII. The problem: Arabs wanted the ENTIRE region to themselves and refused. Thus, Israel became a nation and was immediately attacked by all surrounding countries and against all odds, won.
Fact: What the Arabs are doing to their young in the Israeli terrorities is nothing less than criminal. They refuse to teach the Holocaust, stating that Jews (are you ready for this) CAUSED WWII. They fabricate all kinds of hatred and the vulnerable public believes it.
Fact: In the 2000-2001 peace talks with Clinton, Arafat, and Israeli Prime Minister Barak, the descendants of former Palestinians were offered an unprecedented offer that Saudi Arabian Prince Bandar told Arafat would be a CRIME if he didn't accept. The victim status was too valuable, and Arafat refused the land of Palestine and multi-billionaire package that was so generously offered. A few months later, the Arabs launched the Intifada, killing Jews and spreading violence everywhere. The more generous Israel is, the more violent Arabs become. By the way, Arafat died a BILLIONAIRE. Wouldn't it have been great if he would have given some of his wealth (obtained, well, we don't know how, exactly...) to his own people?
Edited to add: Shibainu -- here is a British documentary that I would highly recommend to you:
(If, for some reason, that link doesn't work, type in "Blaming the Jews" in a Google video search.
In every Palestinian documentary I've seen, it consists of descendants of former Palestinians standing around talking about how horrible Israel and the Jews are. I could stand around and make the same accusations about any of you! But my accusations wouldn't be proven. However, Israel doesn't have to fabricate anything. Palestinians gladly spew their hatred and horrible lies about Jews *on camera.* Several Palestinians have dressed up as Jews (and were later caught, of course) because they were so desperate to find evidence against Jews. The documentary shows some of the horrific lies that the Palestinians tell. One Arab woman claimed that Jews say that it's okay to rape a small girl!! When someone says that it absolutely isn't true, she says that an Islamic scholar told her that and Islam never lies. The logic in that is mind-boggling.
Anyway, please watch the documentary. Unlike the Palestinian documentaries, this one allows the other side to actually speak for themselves rather than stand around and point fingers with no basis of truth.
Last edited by Ilovejazz; 08-17-2007 at 07:36 AM..
I don't know numbers, but the group is funded entirely and run by Christians. Why would they call themselves Jews if they are practicing another religion? Do you see how that is deceptive?
Imagine that someone is born to a Christian family and then converts to Judaism. The person calls himself Christian and spends millions of dollars trying to "spread the word" that G-d is One and that we shouldn't worship Jewish carpenters or anyone else -- ever! Yet, that person maintains he is absolutely Christian.
I happens all the time. I know what you mean. People do think they are Christian like they are German or whatever...but in this case if the Jew is a Jew genetically is he not still a Jew? That would make it so much harder for those who are born a Jew but covert to Christianity. I see what you mean!
I don't know numbers, but the group is funded entirely and run by Christians. Why would they call themselves Jews if they are practicing another religion? Do you see how that is deceptive?
Imagine that someone is born to a Christian family and then converts to Judaism. The person calls himself Christian and spends millions of dollars trying to "spread the word" that G-d is One and that we shouldn't worship Jewish carpenters or anyone else -- ever! Yet, that person maintains he is absolutely Christian.
Well, maybe I'm way off here, but to me it seems rather horrible to tell these people they can't consider themselves Jewish just because they are not practicing Judaism and have converted to Christianity. Because they have had a heart-changing experience they are to throw away their cultural heritage?
Well, maybe I'm way off here, but to me it seems rather horrible to tell these people they can't consider themselves Jewish just because they are not practicing Judaism and have converted to Christianity. Because they have had a heart-changing experience they are to throw away their cultural heritage?
One cannot change his ancestors. However, you do not seem to comprehend the situation at all, and that's probably because it's not your heritage that's being thrown down the toilet. The wolves are Christians and are practicing Christianity. If Judaism were that important to them, they'd never renounce it. And that's exactly what they're doing by worshiping anyone other than G-d.
Jews are strong proponents of religion freedom. However, what we abhor is when someone makes it a huge point of referring to himself as Jewish (the messies) and then rejects the essence of Judaism. Period.
One cannot change his ancestors. However, you do not seem to comprehend the situation at all, and that's probably because it's not your heritage that's being thrown down the toilet. The wolves are Christians and are practicing Christianity. If Judaism were that important to them, they'd never renounce it. And that's exactly what they're doing by worshiping anyone other than G-d.
Jews are strong proponents of religion freedom. However, what we abhor is when someone makes it a huge point of referring to himself as Jewish (the messies) and then rejects the essence of Judaism. Period.
So you are saying that a Jewish person is not free to choose a religion that feels right to them because of their cultural heritage? Or rather that they are free to do so, but not without being judged as "throwing their heritage down the toilet?"
The people I have known were not renouncing their heritage, and in fact still believed in many of the tenants of their faith. They simply have experienced a true heart-changing, Christian experience.
What is the essence of Judaism? I thought it was the same as Christianity: the love of God.
So you are saying that a Jewish person is not free to choose a religion that feels right to them because of their cultural heritage? Or rather that they are free to do so, but not without being judged as "throwing their heritage down the toilet?"
The people I have known were not renouncing their heritage, and in fact still believed in many of the tenants of their faith. They simply have experienced a true heart-changing, Christian experience.
What is the essence of Judaism? I thought it was the same as Christianity: the love of God.
Jeff, I see your point. Can it be that we agree again?
Jeff, I agree completely, and you've given me an excellent thought. What about those who were born Christian but have changed their religion to Satanism? Is it fair that they are not allowed to call themselves Christians? After all, that's their cultural heritage.
Therefore, there should be a group called:
Christians for Satan!
And you, Jeff, are the one with that great idea! So, now, everyone will know that they can be Christians and worship Satan as well.
And let's not stop there. Let's make a Christians for Anything! We can be Christians yet believe and idolize your messiah or Elvis or any other human we want.
Well, let it be known that I appreciate sarcasm, even when directed at me...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilovejazz
Jeff, I agree completely, and you've given me an excellent thought. What about those who were born Christian but have changed their religion to Satanism? Is it fair that they are not allowed to call themselves Christians? After all, that's their cultural heritage.
Because no one is born Christian. There is not Christian DNA. One can be born into a Christian household, attend a Christian church, and even be baptized and not be born-again. Jews do share common genealogy or ancestry with one another, do they not?
If a Christian changes their religion to Satanism then they have rejected Christ and they can longer call themselves a Christian, by definition.
If a Jewish person becomes a born-again Christian, they still share a common genealogy or ancestry with their fellow Jews, do they not?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilovejazz
Therefore, there should be a group called:
Christians for Satan!
Illogical, self-contradictory.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilovejazz
And you, Jeff, are the one with that great idea! So, now, everyone will know that they can be Christians and worship Satan as well.
I would prefer taking credit for ideas I have actually have, and in addition ideas that aren't silly and inane.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilovejazz
And let's not stop there. Let's make a Christians for Anything! We can be Christians yet believe and idolize your messiah or Elvis or any other human we want.
No, no, Christians for Satan makes just as much sense as what you're proposing.
Christians, for centuries, have been bullying, torturing, and killing Jews to force their conversions. The messies is simply another tactic. The group was set-up to deliberately deceive people into converting into Christianity, and you are completely ignorant if you don't see that. The messy group is a grave insult to all Jews, especially those who were killed in the Holocaust.
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Well, let it be known that I appreciate sarcasm, even when directed at me...
