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The biggest issue for Kansas City is that while maybe 20 years ago it was probably comparable to its "peers" in Cincinnati and Indianapolis, today those cities are at least 10-15 years ahead of Kansas City when it comes to urban development.
There's just as much or more urban development in KC as Cincy or Indianapolis.
^ Never said the sky is falling. You are saying that. There are lots of great things about KC, but the city is still pretty far behind in many ways (urban rec, downtown employment, downtown hotels and infill gentrification) and the metro is still decentralizing (companies moving to burbs, attractions being being built in far flung locations etc) than most cities now.
That doesn't mean there is not a lot going on in KC. KC has an amazing arts scene, some really nice attractions etc that other cities don't have. For example, Baltimore would LOVE to have KC's sprint center and kauffman center for example. So there are lot of things that KC has that Baltimore needs. Baltimore has a solid downtown employment, solid residential construction (compared to kc), good urban rec and tourism, lots of hotels, the city has subway, light rail, commuter rail and will soon break ground on a new light rail line. I'm just pointing out where KC is still missing the boat or far behind.
Are you kidding about Cinci and Pitts? I'm in those cities all the time and their downtown areas are full of people all the time especially along the riverfront greenways etc. Pitts and Cincy also have more corporate presence downtown and more intact vibrant urban neighborhoods surrounding their downtowns.
I mentioned Cincy because they are building stronger surrounding neighborhoods, the KY side of Cincy has become very popular compared to KCK which has not changed to several decades. Indy and Cincy both have made massive investments in urban recreation with riverfront parks and trails that bring thousands of people downtown just for recreation. Indy and Cincy both have placed all their sports venues downtown which also keeps people coming downtown. Indy has been building more downtown housing than KC like 2-3 times as much.
So when I say KC feels dead, it's nothing personal, just an observation and for somebody coming from another large city it's noticeable, that's all. Of course ther are people in parks in KC, duh. But it's all relative. There are probably more people out walking, biking and dining in suburban cities like downtown Silver Spring, MD, Rockville, MD, Bethesda, MD, Alexandria, VA etc than in Downtown KCMO right now. So I'm sure there are more people in downtown Indy, Milwaukee, Denver, Minneapolis etc. Why can you not just admit that? When we travel to KC (downtown area), the first things my kids ask is where is everybody at? They are just not used to a city that is so empty or at least feels that way.
Is the sky falling? No. KC has always been that way. There is plenty to do there, but it absolutely lacks the bustle of most large cities in both urban areas and it certainly lacks the urban recreation (on a relative scale!) that is so popular in most large cities now.
It's getting better in KC, but it is a slow process there. It's really that simple.
^ Never said the sky is falling. You are saying that. There are lots of great things about KC, but the city is still pretty far behind in many ways (urban rec, downtown employment, downtown hotels and infill gentrification) and the metro is still decentralizing (companies moving to burbs, attractions being being built in far flung locations etc) than most cities now.
That doesn't mean there is not a lot going on in KC. KC has an amazing arts scene, some really nice attractions etc that other cities don't have. For example, Baltimore would LOVE to have KC's sprint center and kauffman center for example. So there are lot of things that KC has that Baltimore needs. Baltimore has a solid downtown employment, solid residential construction (compared to kc), good urban rec and tourism, lots of hotels, the city has subway, light rail, commuter rail and will soon break ground on a new light rail line. I'm just pointing out where KC is still missing the boat or far behind.
Are you kidding about Cinci and Pitts? I'm in those cities all the time and their downtown areas are full of people all the time especially along the riverfront greenways etc. Pitts and Cincy also have more corporate presence downtown and more intact vibrant urban neighborhoods surrounding their downtowns.
I mentioned Cincy because they are building stronger surrounding neighborhoods, the KY side of Cincy has become very popular compared to KCK which has not changed to several decades. Indy and Cincy both have made massive investments in urban recreation with riverfront parks and trails that bring thousands of people downtown just for recreation. Indy and Cincy both have placed all their sports venues downtown which also keeps people coming downtown.
So when I say KC feels dead, it's nothing personal, just an observation and for somebody coming from another large city it's noticeable, that's all. Of course ther are people in parks in KC, duh. But it's all relative. There are probably more people out walking, biking and dining in suburban cities like downtown Silver Spring, MD, Rockville, MD, Bethesda, MD, Alexandria, VA etc than in Downtown KCMO right now. So I'm sure there are more people in downtown Indy, Milwaukee, Denver, Minneapolis etc. Why can you not just admit that? When we travel to KC (downtown area), the first things my kids ask is where is everybody at? They are just not used to a city that is so empty or at least feels that way.
Is the sky falling? No. KC has always been that way. There is plenty to do there, but it absolutely lacks the bustle of most large cities in both urban areas and it certainly lacks the urban recreation (on a relative scale!) that is so popular in most large cities now.
It's getting better in KC, but it is a slow process there. It's really that simple.
Baltimore is not really a peer city. Don't remember what I said about Pittsburgh (thought I mentioned Cincy and Indy), and Cincy...no not kidding at all. I'll grant that the Northern KY suburbs are more fun than anything in KCK, but Cincy's downtown isn't any more bustling than KC during the business day, and less so at night. Cincy obviously has more distinct little neighborhoods, but they seem go to bed earlier and many are just sleepier to begin with, compared with Westport, Brookside, Waldo, West 39th, etc. A lot of them are kind of like downtown NKC, very quaint and totally asleep by 7 pm. Clifton and Hyde park are the only ones that seem like they are as or more lively than KC, and there's nothing in the whole city as vibrant as the Plaza. Indianapolis seems to have more activity downtown, but that's it. Even Broad Ripple is a pretty sleepy area compared to almost anything in the core of KC. Urban recreation? I know this is a sore spot with you, and I understand why, but I'd bet money there's no more people on Cincy's river front trail than there are on the average day on the Trolley Track trail (which I know doesn't count in your calculus), and there's just as many people in parks and at cafes and on the sidewalks and on their porches, and at tennis courts, etc., even more so compared to Indianapolis (which does have the obvious upper hand on both for bike trail traffic). For better or for worse, the Plaza functions as KC's "recreational" downtown, and its livelier than anything in Cincy or Indianapolis or Milwaukee or Omaha, so to decide that none of it "counts" toward urban vibrancy is a little disingenuous...or in your case, confirmation biased.
Typical of the KC forums it seems. Each post is not really a response but a change of direction of the topic. You really didn't address my previous post and my ideals of why KC is still behind most cities. I'm not talking about Waldo, the Plaza etc. Those are many miles from downtown and many cities have secondary urban districts. I disagree with you on Downtown KC and surrounding areas being just as busy as Downtown Cincy or really any comparably sized city. We just need to agree to disagree on that. Downtown KC is very dead "feeling". The streets and sidewalks are just empty compared to nearly every other city. That's is my opinion.
Now there are some reasons for this. One is the freeways that choke downtown, another is the fact that downtown KC just does not have as many surrounding neighborhoods which is do to its geography. To the west is a bluff with the not very vibrant west bottoms and not very vibrant KCK on the other side, the north has River Market and Columbus Park, but then a river with no real urban connection to NKC, to the east is blocks and blocks of underutilized land that was once urban, but barely in tact now so there is very little activity east of Grand to well beyond the freeway loop into the struggling east side. The south is Downtown's best hope to develop neighborhoods and that IS happening with the Crossroads. In the past year or so, there have been some good news for infill in the crossroads (hotels, apartments etc), but right now, the crossroads is only about half developed and most of it, even right near I-670 is pretty dead most of the time with little traffic or pedestrians and a lot of parking lots etc. So you have few large vibrant neighborhoods directly connected to downtown and you also have almost no through streets. Most downtowns have many major streets that connect many large urban areas of a city "via" their downtown. KC's downtown streets don't have that thru traffic. The thru traffic is passing through downtown via the freeways, even if its local traffic (union hill to NKC for example). So the only traffic in downtown KC is generally traffic destined for downtown.
Now, you combine that with the fact that KC's stadiums are not downtown, the fact that downtown KC has about 1/4 the hotel rooms that comparably sized cities have and the fact that people just don't go to downtown KC for recreation (like they do in droves in most cities now) to take advantage of riverfront parks etc, you end up with a city is is pretty quiet most of the time.
Now, I never said that was even a problem. KC's downtown feeling dead is like KCI Airport feeling dead. KCI feels like it's a small town airport that has 12 flights a day, but in reality, the airport is a top 30 airport with 10-12 million passengers a year. Downtown is somewhat similar. It's just the lay of the land for the most part.
But what I was saying is that metro KC is still not really all that committed to downtown. Downtown KC is doing TERRIBLE at keeping or adding jobs. The only thing saving it has been the federal government, but even with the federal government bringing 1000's of jobs downtown, it still lost 25% of its jobs in just ten years and there has been almost no activity of companies expanding or moving to downtown KC. They are STILL moving to Kansas. AMC, Fishnet etc. In cities like Cincy, Pittsburgh (let alone denver, charlotte etc) there is just more local corporate pride in their downtowns. That also hurts downtown KCMO's vibrancy.
I hope you can respect my opinions here. I actually enjoy discussing these topics with you even though you seem to take what I say personally. I respect your opinions and agree with you that a lot is going on in KC but it's only relative to KC, not really what's going on nationally. I just personally think that KC is still behind in many aspects of urban revitalization. I still think that after the city has spent BILLIONS on downtown, that the metro business and development community has just not responded and KC's economy continues to go deeper and deeper into the Kansas suburbs. Transit and urban rec is severely lacking (I know it's improving). Regional attractions are only getting more spread out rather than creating critical mass. Jobs continue to leave the core at a faster rate than most cities even though most cities still have problems with jobs going to suburbs.
The bottom line is that KC is still having major problems with suburban sprawl getting nearly all the growth in KC, often still at the expense of downtown KCMO itself. There are lots of great things about KC, but many other things have not changed since the 1980's. The suburbs are still having a drastic impact on KCMO, worse than average in my opinion.
Again, I guess we can just agree to disagree. But again, I like reading your posts and enjoy the debates.
I tend to disagree with a lot of what kcmo writes, but he is right when it comes to corporate presence downtown. It's disappointing that buildings like City Center are only 1/3 full. I work in 1KCP and it's probably 75% full and it seems Town Pavillion and 1201 Walnut are both in the upper percentages. I wish Copaken or Executive Hills would build a spec tower downtown. I think this could do a lot for improving the image that downtown has come back and I think it would fill up pretty quickly as companies lease committments ran out in other properties. Also, a new modern convention hotel needs to be built, preferrably a Hyatt or Omni. A W hotel would be nice as well. It's just frustrating when all the city does is talk or do studies and then nothing gets announced. The last proposal was a joint venture between Cordish and Omni, but I think it fell through for whatever reason. I assume the city felt it would be on the hook for too much. But this city needs to learn to take risks again if it is going to continue to develop and grow and compete for business and residents.
I tend to disagree with a lot of what kcmo writes, but he is right when it comes to corporate presence downtown. It's disappointing that buildings like City Center are only 1/3 full. I work in 1KCP and it's probably 75% full and it seems Town Pavillion and 1201 Walnut are both in the upper percentages. I wish Copaken or Executive Hills would build a spec tower downtown. I think this could do a lot for improving the image that downtown has come back and I think it would fill up pretty quickly as companies lease committments ran out in other properties. Also, a new modern convention hotel needs to be built, preferrably a Hyatt or Omni. A W hotel would be nice as well. It's just frustrating when all the city does is talk or do studies and then nothing gets announced. The last proposal was a joint venture between Cordish and Omni, but I think it fell through for whatever reason. I assume the city felt it would be on the hook for too much. But this city needs to learn to take risks again if it is going to continue to develop and grow and compete for business and residents.
Is there any reason to suggest that it is other than simple supply and demand? Is there reason to think that any more people want to work downtown?
Investment in suburban office parks and associated hotels/restaurants is a much surer bet, because that's where most would rather be.
I tend to disagree with a lot of what kcmo writes, but he is right when it comes to corporate presence downtown. It's disappointing that buildings like City Center are only 1/3 full. I work in 1KCP and it's probably 75% full and it seems Town Pavillion and 1201 Walnut are both in the upper percentages. I wish Copaken or Executive Hills would build a spec tower downtown. I think this could do a lot for improving the image that downtown has come back and I think it would fill up pretty quickly as companies lease committments ran out in other properties. Also, a new modern convention hotel needs to be built, preferrably a Hyatt or Omni. A W hotel would be nice as well. It's just frustrating when all the city does is talk or do studies and then nothing gets announced. The last proposal was a joint venture between Cordish and Omni, but I think it fell through for whatever reason. I assume the city felt it would be on the hook for too much. But this city needs to learn to take risks again if it is going to continue to develop and grow and compete for business and residents.
I'm not sure KC has any developers that would build urban spec office space. That's pretty rare in any city right now, but in KC, it's next to impossible due to the conservative developers there and the high turnover of excessive office space in JoCo (the sprint campus sub leases for example have kept office construction and rates down in the entire KC market for years). When you can get furnished class A office space at the sprint campus for half the going rate of unfurnished space, that pretty much kills the market.
But I agree with you 100%. Maybe an out of town developer will come into the city and get some things going. Downtown needs "new" class A office space. Even if it didn't fill with local companies, it would eventually fill up. That's how many cities grow, they build it and they eventually come. If you are conservative, you just try to maintain what you have, never actually growing (or in KC's situation, rapidly losing employees). That why you still see new construction in cities like Dallas and Denver even during high vacancy times, developers will take a risk for long term pay off.
And yes, Downtown KC desperately needs some modern hotel buildings and some of the flags its missing. W, Omni, Hyatt Grand, (or just a Hyatt Regency again), Four Seasons, JW Marriott etc. Just one or two of those in 1000-2000 more rooms will do wonders to bring back KC's convention biz and bring vibrancy and activity to downtown supporting the P&L district etc. At any given time, there are 1000 rooms going up in KC's suburbs but almost nothing has been added to downtown (I know about the crossroads hotels, those should go up and compliment larger hotels that kc needs). Just about every city in the country has added major downtown hotels and almost every major city in the country already has 2-3 times the hotel rooms KC has. Metro KC actually has a lot of room (over 30k) which is higher than average for a city of KC's size. The problem is downtown only has a few thousand of that total which is way low for cities of KC's size.
The sky is not falling but KC has been studying its hotel situation now for over a decade. In that same time period, you would not believe how many studies have turned into real hotels in other towns.
I know I know, people in KC don't care what other towns are doing. They probably should though. KC has a nice convention center, but its lack of downtown hotels have been causing the city to lose or get passed up by conventions since the 90's. Hotels add a LOT of activity and 24 hour vibrancy to an urban area, you know that vibrancy thing I keep saying KC is missing a bit.
shindig, this post is not directed at you, just a rant of agreement .
I know we've gotten a bit off topic since this thread is about the task force recommendation for KCI (which I support either way). I don't fly that often (2 times a year max), so the current configuration of the airport doesn't really bother me. Would I support a new, modern airport....Yes. Do I think it's a top priority for the City right now...No. I would rather the City leaders focus more on getting downtown to the next level, which would include more residents, more business and more conventions. But this all probably does tie into having a new, modern airport or at least an airport that functions better. Some of these gripes about KCI could be fixed for a relatively small amount in the meantime it seems. Most of the Yelp negative reviews were complaints about not having enough outlets to charge phones/tablets and lack of food choices and of course the weird screening area (that's a bigger issue) and I'm not sure how you "fix" in post 9/11.
I'm not sure KC has any developers that would build urban spec office space. That's pretty rare in any city right now, but in KC, it's next to impossible due to the conservative developers there and the high turnover of excessive office space in JoCo (the sprint campus sub leases for example have kept office construction and rates down in the entire KC market for years). When you can get furnished class A office space at the sprint campus for half the going rate of unfurnished space, that pretty much kills the market.
But I agree with you 100%. Maybe an out of town developer will come into the city and get some things going. Downtown needs "new" class A office space. Even if it didn't fill with local companies, it would eventually fill up. That's how many cities grow, they build it and they eventually come. If you are conservative, you just try to maintain what you have, never actually growing (or in KC's situation, rapidly losing employees). That why you still see new construction in cities like Dallas and Denver even during high vacancy times, developers will take a risk for long term pay off.
And yes, Downtown KC desperately needs some modern hotel buildings and some of the flags its missing. W, Omni, Hyatt Grand, (or just a Hyatt Regency again), Four Seasons, JW Marriott etc. Just one or two of those in 1000-2000 more rooms will do wonders to bring back KC's convention biz and bring vibrancy and activity to downtown supporting the P&L district etc. At any given time, there are 1000 rooms going up in KC's suburbs but almost nothing has been added to downtown (I know about the crossroads hotels, those should go up and compliment larger hotels that kc needs). Just about every city in the country has added major downtown hotels and almost every major city in the country already has 2-3 times the hotel rooms KC has. Metro KC actually has a lot of room (over 30k) which is higher than average for a city of KC's size. The problem is downtown only has a few thousand of that total which is way low for cities of KC's size.
The sky is not falling but KC has been studying its hotel situation now for over a decade. In that same time period, you would not believe how many studies have turned into real hotels in other towns.
I know I know, people in KC don't care what other towns are doing. They probably should though. KC has a nice convention center, but its lack of downtown hotels have been causing the city to lose or get passed up by conventions since the 90's. Hotels add a LOT of activity and 24 hour vibrancy to an urban area, you know that vibrancy thing I keep saying KC is missing a bit.
shindig, this post is not directed at you, just a rant of agreement .
I didn't realize it has been so long since a new hotel went up downtown. KC doesn't have a JW Marriott? I stayed at the new JWM in downtown Indianapolis a couple years ago. That's a sweet hotel
...The streetcar is better than nothing, but it's not going to get it done. That streetcar should be just small part of a much larger regional plan that should at least in the design stages by now. Streetcars are for neighborhoods anyway because they are very slow and don't move a lot of people. Streetcars compliment light and commuter rail rather than replace them (see seattle and portland and soon St Louis). You bet there should be light rail down broadway on to shawnee mission parkway and down to 435. Then maybe the "gateway" project in mission wouldn't be the joke it has become and actually might be the awesome high end mixed use urban project that it was originally envisioned.
Agreed that the streetcar from River Market to Union Station, which is being built now, is not going to suffice. And the extension lines being talked about really won't be adequate either. Streetcars are slow.
KC needs a regional mass transit system, several of which have been proposed (DC-style subway from Bannister to River Market; commuter rail from suburbia to Union Station; grade separation of a faster streetcar along the Brookside Trolley Trail to Waldo--light rail, basically). I fear that the downtown streetcar will "lock" policy along a bad paradigm for decades. Streetcars jangling through crowds of conventioneers at 5mph in downtown KC will not help unite people and jobs from Independence or Lenexa or Rosedale or Lee's Summit (or even the new Cerner facility at Bannister).
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