[tony soprano]

Originally Posted by cmist

Tony's well is dry, the only thing left is insults.

It wasn't an insult, it was a summary of what appears to be our philosophical differences. You see, I want the freedom to decide what's in my own best interests. I don't want those decisions made for me. I want the big, greedy, evil banks to lend me as much money as they feel prudent, and then decide for myself if I should borrow it or not. I don't want people like you making my decisions for me.

I made a great deal of money honestly, never refinanced, paid off my cars, have no credit cards. These were my decisions, and made from my own free will. Regardless of how responsible I have chosen to live, or how other responsible people live, they are living in needless turmoil because of the greedy banking system.

It's all the the big, greedy, evil, arm twisting banks fault. There's no such thing as a greedy RE speculator.

I dont need to be saved from myself, but rather from people like you. Im glad I can just turn off my computer and never have to see or hear from you ever again. Is there a way to block posts from particular people. After this useless conversation with Tony, Im really confident NOTHING will ever come out of his mouth that means anything.

Here's a thought; if the forum has no ignore function, exercise that thing called "free will" and simply skip over my posts. Free will and personal responsibility, novel concepts.

[olecapt]

Originally Posted by cmist

Im not thinking of "regulation" when I say any of this. Im only of the belief that banks need to identify which loans blew up in their faces and stop offering them. Its what any good business would do. I also believe that if they used a little brain power it was easy to spot the products they offered were flawed and exactly as you said, "Geared for maximum short term gain at ALL costs", which includes the the destruction of the whole nations economy. To me thats a monumental price to pay just so banks have the privelege of some short term profits. The only other thing that I think is necessary is that they stick to tried and true methods of qualifying their borrowers, and not revert to easy financing to anything with a pulse when it becomes profitable again.

If you own a subway and every time you put some weird new sauce on the sub the customers take one bite, throws it out and demands a refund, you would stop using the weird new sauce, otherwise you would go broke. Thats just common business sense.

Thats all I'm suggesting and nothing radical or crazy. But banks nor people with the "Tony" mentality want to say that they f*cked up. This refusal to put blame where its due is only going to allow the same series of events to replay.

Your post Olecapt was refreshing, and I totally understood it was written with intelligence. Thanks it really was a breath of fresh air. I seriously would like to find a way to block anything written by Tony. His meat-head mentality enfuriates me and I would rather not see anything he writes. Is there a way to do such a thing.

Careful. One of the truly terrible things in this crisis was the credit default swap. It was an appallingly stupid idea that ran for years making great sums of money for various financial institutions. This construct would never have survived if subject to any ratonal regulation. It was simply hopelessly unsound but loved for its immediate revenue generation capability.

YOu can't really ignore the Tonys They are out there all the time selling their distorted version of reality. Ayn loves them. And even after the worst lost in history they are still in there pitching.

And to keep them from gaining ground you have to keep pitching reality.

[cmist]

Originally Posted by tony soprano

It wasn't an insult, it was a summary of what appears to be our philosophical differences. You see, I want the freedom to decide what's in my own best interests. I don't want those decisions made for me. I want the big, greedy, evil banks to lend me as much money as they feel prudent, and then decide for myself if I should borrow it or not. I don't want people like you making my decisions for me.It's all the the big, greedy, evil, arm twisting banks fault. There's no such thing as a greedy RE speculator. Here's a thought; if the forum has no ignore function, exercise that thing called "free will" and simply skip over my posts. Free will and personal responsibility, novel concepts.

Let me summarize our differences before I exercise my freewill to completely ignore you.

We BOTH agree that banks should loan whatever they see as prudent.

Where we disagree is that I say banks were loaning money to people even when it wasnt prudent, they made decisions that were not prudent for themselves or the borrower.

This does not infer I have any interest in butting into your personal finances, or any other aspect of your pathetic life. They conducted business like irresponsible pigs. Although, we both agree, at least they didnt use guns or "arm twisting" so I have given them some brownie points for that.

I say OUR NATION is the victim of the banking systems lapse of judgement and failure to properly qualify their own borrowers, but you say the BANKS are unfairly blamed and are the victims of the buyers that THEY APPROVED!!

I say the problem would be solved if banks merely do their job and say no to irresponsible buyers, and you say... Banks should dangle large sums of money in front of people that can not afford to repay it, give them the money just because they want it and lack the willpower to say no. Even though this very action will only hurt them, the borrower, and f*ck the rest of the innocent country up too.

That is a much more accurate report of our differences.

[airics]

get the popcorn out guys, this is gonna be good...

[tony soprano]

Originally Posted by cmist

I say OUR NATION is the victim of the banking systems lapse of judgement and failure to properly qualify their own borrowers, but you say the BANKS are unfairly blamed and are the victims of the buyers that THEY APPROVED!!

I say you sound like a professional victim with the inability to make decisions in your own best interest. You are best suited having someone make your decisions for you, which is exactly what you're advocating. If that works for you, great. But please don't presume that I, and many others like me, need to have our hands held while making it through life.

I say the problem would be solved if banks merely do their job and say no to irresponsible buyers, and you say... Banks should dangle large sums of money in front of people that can not afford to repay it, give them the money just because they want it and lack the willpower to say no. Even though this very action will only hurt them, the borrower, and f*ck the rest of the innocent country up too.

What's that you say? Irresponsible buyers? Wow, we've made some progress. So then I guess it wasn't just the big, greedy, evil bank's fault was it? BTW, I've interfaced with plenty of lenders in my life and I've never spoken to any that met the description above - "they just dangled the money under the noses of people who didn't have the willpower to say no."

We're talking home loans here, not crack buys.

[tony soprano]

Originally Posted by olecapt

Careful. One of the truly terrible things in this crisis was the credit default swap. It was an appallingly stupid idea that ran for years making great sums of money for various financial institutions. This construct would never have survived if subject to any ratonal regulation. It was simply hopelessly unsound but loved for its immediate revenue generation capability.

YOu can't really ignore the Tonys They are out there all the time selling their distorted version of reality. Ayn loves them. And even after the worst lost in history they are still in there pitching.

And to keep them from gaining ground you have to keep pitching reality.

Did I just see "Pitching reality" typed from the person that said there was no Vegas housing bubble in 2006? Now that's just comedy gold. ROFL!

[cmist]

Ive said irresponsible buyers OVER & OVER & OVER again, just read back all the way from the beginning.

I have also reiterated a mind numbing amount of times, that an irresponsible buyer that gets approved is the product of a bank that makes faulty decisions. And since we can also both agree on the fact that SO many irresponsible buyers were given loans they couldnt afford, without the use of guns or "arm twisting", we should also agree that banks did something terribly wrong. (IE. offering money to borrowers who couldnt afford it, and approving them just because they wanted it and couldnt say no)

But for some reason we are butting heads and you are turning this into some paranoid delusion that everyone wants to steal your free will??

I really do NOT understand your position, unless you yourself pulled some doozies on a gullible crowd and want to make sure your feeding grounds are not disturbed or possibly feel really guilty and feel the need to ease your conscience.

[Slim10]

Guys, make peace not war.

Better yet, make babies. 18 years 9 months later, no more vacant houses....

[hawaiianhaole]

i have been following. i think tony sidetracks off the point and tries to confuse with unfounded accusations. i dont think cmist sounds like he wants to make decisions for anyone. he just wants banks to quit deflecting their involvement. when the goin got tough, tony left vegas so he dont care whats goin on. but watch out guys just from readin his stuff, i think he was one of the lenders that messed with buyers cause otherwise his attitude dont make sense.

[tony soprano]

I did miss an earlier instance of your reference to "irresponsible buyers" and that's my bad, but you don't just post messages, you publish papers. That said, it is a moderation of your first position. If you go back to your original post, you'll find no mention of the irresponsible buyer. What you'll find is this -

Originally Posted by cmist

No one should have any hostility towards their troubled or angry neighbors. Its 100% a greedy banker issue.

I've said at least 7-8 pages ago that there was plenty of blame to go round. I don't know how that statement could be taken as excluding lenders/banks. However, to say it was 100% a greedy banker issue while ignoring the roles of the irresponsible buyers and speculators was wholly inaccurate IMO.

Another topic where our perspectives widely diverge is your belief that banks made loans even when they knew they wouldn't be repaid. I'd be willing to make a wager that there were many more instances of buyers cooking their info and finessing documentation to secure a loan, than there were lenders knowingly making loans that they knew were not going to be repaid.