Effects of Long Island consolidating it's school districts (New York, Syracuse: buying, utilities)

[twingles]

Originally Posted by LoveBeingAMommy

It's never going to be a reality because of teacher unions. But it should happen. It would help level out the playing field for most students.

I was very turned off by county schools when we once considered moving south. In fact, it was the major factor behind our not making the move. But the more I look at performance #s up here vs, say, Virginia, the more I realize that county schools do work better. I'm not saying it doesn't have issues. Everything does.

Your logistical reasons are peanuts compared to the big union issue.

I live with county schools and have lived on Long Island, but I guess you know better than me (and no, they aren't a reason not to move) Things like many school districts owning their own buses and buildings and who is going to buy them and where does the money come from are not "peanuts". It's one reason why the reverse (going from county to town-based schools) won't happen here. I can just imagine what my taxes would be if Town of Cary decided to buy Wake County-owned schools and NC owned buses. No thanks. My taxes would make me yearn for LI. You can still have a union and have county schools. I'm not sure why anyone thinks consolidation means "no union".

And you would still need the same amount of teachers, since you wouldn't be getting rid of any students, so the big savings (which would be huge, admittedly) would be getting rid of tons of administrators. Still gotta pay them those ridiculous salaries and benefits, though.

And just wait till you get one of those storms where it snows 6 inches on the north shore and the south shore gets a dusting that doesn't stick or it snows a foot in Montauk but Huntington sees just rain and ALL of the schools are closed because that's how it rolls on a county wide system.

It's never going to happen on Long Island, so while it's fun to argue, it's just fantasyland.

[VA Yankee]

Originally Posted by WithDisp

The only time you'd see a reduction in staff is in complete job overlap of workers who are not already working to capacity. Say Suffolk consolidates- nearly all 'positions' have twice the amount of work now. So they need to keep the same amount of staff- just coordinate who does what.

Taxing authorities are a big deal, as it is what has gotten spending and raises to a high level in the NY Metro.

The biggest difference though is Industry. As Westchester and LI scramble to make sense of their high taxes- they all too often overlook that their school systems are in areas that have little to no commercial base.

Those that do (White Plains) have considerably lower taxes than their neighbors.

What you may not realize is every if not most school districts have a central office with a Superintendent, lead teachers and a whole lot of others that create/oversea the curriculum. Each district has this set-up, if consolidated you only need one just as you only need one bus garage, one maintenance department, one it department etc. Even within schools, programs that may be lightly attended could be combined at one location . Obviously the numbers would be based on the number of school buildings but odds are there is overlap in manning that can be trimmed. The right of districts to tax could be eliminated, they would have to submit a budget to the county for approval and learn to live within it. Contracts would be negotiated county wide as would benefits and the potential for a lower healthcare cost per person due to volume is very real.

Forget industry LI has too many points against it as others have pointed out combine that with NY's taxes, draconian laws for industry and the general cost of day to day and that ship will not be landing. Westchester is not located at a dead end choke point so maybe something would choose to locate if the locals aren't offended by it.

But none of this matters because based on the posts on this board the sacred cow that is the school systems can not be touched, consolidation could never save money and heaven forbid my district gets combined with that district...

[Quick Commenter]

As a threshold matter consolidation does not reduce property taxes - all sides of the issue agree on that - so there will never be a groundswell of support for doing it.


Side -by-side district consolidations don't result in a reduction of students or student services (although a handful of admins might be ditched) and county-wide services are not known for their efficiencies. Even consolidations within districts (by closing schools) don't result in decreased property taxes (or staff layoffs).


Not at all a sacred cow issue - pure economics (folks think they are already overtaxed).


If, in fact it did save money - and it most certainly does not - all the other persuasive arguments against it would then come into play. Each one of which (combining dissimilar school districts, crazy transportation issues, parental reactions, Long Island history, increased property taxes, etc etc) alone would derail any proposal.

[VA Yankee]

Can someone please explain how having 50+ districts (Nassau) duplicating services and facilities is more cost effective then combining these resources as posters have expressed?

[ovi8]

Originally Posted by VA Yankee

Can someone please explain how having 50+ districts (Nassau) duplicating services and facilities is more cost effective then combining these resources as posters have expressed?

It may or may not be (as has been argued in the last few pages) - but that does not do anything for seeing much in actual tax savings anyway. Do you believe that is true or not?

Maybe I'm naive or don't have all the information but let's look at it this way - we have 1 superintendent ~$300k salary (that's only 2-3 teachers) in our town and her helpers, yet our SCHOOL taxes alone are $9k for a colonial. How does getting rid of the handful of admins IN OUR TOWN decrease this figure significantly across 9,000 households here? Based on those numbers, they collect tens-of-millions of dollars in SCHOOL taxes alone here ($54mil if 6k school taxes avg). And we're talking about trying to remove less than $1mil in salaries. Admin salaries are only a tiny drop in the bucket.

You know what's interesting? If I take that $54mil and divide it by the number of TEACHERS we have, that amounts to just about a 6-figure salary for each. How coincidental.

[monstermagnet]

Here we go again. The district has 500 teachers at an avg of $90k each (that's a lowball estimate, go waste your own time on SeeThruNy). That's $45m. With a reduction of just 1% (no pain at ALL to the teachers and their bou coup benefits) that is $450k. More than most superintendents make. Except teachers are a dime a dozen with a 1000 mile long waiting list of MSEd degrees begging for a shot at that powerball win of a job. Few if ANY want that Super job. Tough requirements, long hours, Newsday, local board, angry parents, pressure, pressure. It's a fairly crappy job for $280k COMPARED to working 8-3:30 running the music department for $150k. The myth of admin savings is just that. The across the board teacher salaries are the ponzi scheme that keeps the tax base barely breathing and sinks the average homeowner year after year. Town, county, local, it doesn't matter, until the State constitution is burned and new, reasonable contracts put in place (and wipe out pensions for convicted felons while we're at it), nothing will help. And like Twingles said, it's a fantasy. Will NEVER happen. The local public union voting blocs already OUTNUMBER the public voters. Unless maybe the people turn out en masse to vote but they don't and probably won't. So they will pay through the nose. Or move, weakening the tax base even further. More money dumped into contracted pay and benefits year after year and none goes to students or programs. Everyone sees it. Consolidation is the wrong target. Bad contracts is the right one.

[ovi8]

Originally Posted by monstermagnet

Unless maybe the people turn out en masse to vote but they don't and probably won't.

Time and again we see in public forums like town FB pages the "humanizing" of teachers and how much they do for our kids. Friends and neighbors stand up for them as a person (not wrong) and it's as simple as "vote YES to show Mary our support!" Meanwhile, we ARE paying through the nose because sweet Mary is in bed with other greedy people, but we think it's both easier and the right thing to do to keep showing our support because they help our kids. This is on top of whichever union members who already show up to vote yes.

It's not easy to get everyone against them (I mean, it is for me because I've had enough regardless of how sweet Mary is). Instead of voicing our opinion of Mary by voting yes or no on a budget, we need to attack the coalition directly - as in break it up. This budget thing will always be required, and salaries get passed regardless.

For what it's worth, Mary, you don't deserve $125,000/year to teach kids and have summers off. So quit begging for raises that come directly from our pockets. I hope you at least feel guilty, hiding behind a machine that does the dirty work for you.

[NewYorkBuckeye]

Originally Posted by OneToGo

This argument has been going on for years and has nothing to do w/ teacher unions.

It has all to this with combining affluent districts with their next door neighbor low income districts. Think about the chance of Half Hollow Hills getting 50% of Wyandanch. Or Franklin Square and Floral Park consolidating with Elmont. RVC absorbing Baldwin?

"Ain't happenin'."

Half Hollow Hills SD is already 15% black because of Wheatley Heights, and Wyandanch is such a small district that it wouldn't make much of a difference. And FS and FP already share the central high school system with Elmont, merging elementary districts probably wouldn't be a big deal to them.

[VA Yankee]

Originally Posted by ovi8

It may or may not be (as has been argued in the last few pages) - but that does not do anything for seeing much in actual tax savings anyway. Do you believe that is true or not?

Maybe I'm naive or don't have all the information but let's look at it this way - we have 1 superintendent ~$300k salary in our town and her helpers, yet our SCHOOL taxes alone are $9k for a colonial. How does getting rid of the handful of admins IN OUR TOWN decrease this figure significantly across a thousand households? It's a drop in the bucket.

I won't argue that your school tax is a crime, not knowing your district I pulled a couple of random districts on the island. Besides the Superintendent Central Offices are tasked with creating and running the curriculum that schools follow as well as the support services behind the scenes here's what I found.

Merrick: 3 schools and no info online other than the Sup and four Assistant Sups
Brentwood: 16 schools, 24 Department Heads and potentially 10-15 admin support positions
Jericho: 5 schools, 1 Sup, 3 A-Sups, 7 directors and their staffs
Roosevelt: 5 Schools, 1 Sup and 5 A-Sups and their staffs

If each Superintendent is making $300k or more these 4 alone represent $1.2 Million and that only 4 districts. I read where Roosevelt contracts out for their payroll services another expense that could be covered in house as other districts do. I would guess each central office is at least 25 people and the senior personnel are making sizable salaries.

How many locations have a lightly attended school not 1/2 a mile from a lightly attended school but in another district? Consolidation of resources is where the saving come from you only need 1 bus facility, 1 IT department, 1 math department etc. Special-ed services can be standardized and improved for every student instead of replication and outsourcing that happens now. People wouldn't have to house hunt based on the perceptions of services a district provides.

As I asked before who can tell me how replicating services 50+ different ways is more cost effective?

[ovi8]

Originally Posted by VA Yankee

The right of districts to tax could be eliminated, they would have to submit a budget to the county for approval and learn to live within it. Contracts would be negotiated county wide as would benefits and the potential for a lower healthcare cost per person due to volume is very real.

How does this help if the teacher's union still has their own contract total? The only difference is the number would be larger as a county vs each district. Has nothing to do with consolidating admins and facilities. The bulk of the cost (and hence our taxes) is still there.

Originally Posted by VA Yankee

Merrick: 3 schools and no info online other than the Sup and four Assistant Sups
Brentwood: 16 schools, 24 Department Heads and potentially 10-15 admin support positions
Jericho: 5 schools, 1 Sup, 3 A-Sups, 7 directors and their staffs
Roosevelt: 5 Schools, 1 Sup and 5 A-Sups and their staffs

If each Superintendent is making $300k or more these 4 alone represent $1.2 Million and that only 4 districts. I read where Roosevelt contracts out for their payroll services another expense that could be covered in house as other districts do. I would guess each central office is at least 25 people and the senior personnel are making sizable salaries.

You're trying to total up the entire county's admins' salaries but why don't you also total up all the teacher salaries to compare why we're paying so much?

On the town level, how does even $2mil in admin salaries compare to the $50mil collected for teacher salaries??? Across 9000 households in town, that's $222 tax each house for admin salaries vs. $5,555 tax for teacher salaries. That's a whole lot of work to change and undoubtedly frustration to save us $222.

You are looking at the queens with their big bold figures but it's the countless worker ants that are doing the real damage.

We want to attack the problem of rising taxes - and this won't go over well - but drop each of the 500 teachers to a reasonable $70k avg salary (same as Fairfax) and we only collect $35mil among 9000 households. Instantly that's $1667/yr saved per household. As it is now, each year going by, more teachers earn more automatically (yay step increases), we lose more to them.