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Tell that to the scientists and researchers who go begging for grant money. You really don't understand how that world works.
Whatever you say. I have writtten grant proposals and gotten them awarded. If a researcher is begging for $, maybe their proposal is worth exactly that much. But again, completely off topic.
The vaccine mandate for children/schools are all for vaccines that have been used for decades and have been proven both safe (both in the short term and long term) and bullet proof in terms of preventing infection (in large part because they don't address upper respiratory vaccines). That is why they exist, and why 99% or people don't object. But don't kid yourself, it is almost always because people don't want their own kid getting sick.
Even when these vaccines were first "mandated", they had been used for years and shown to be safe and reliable. None of them became mandated within a year of invention or first approval. If, if, if, after several years have elapsed the covid vaccine is shown to be harmless (likely in my opinion) and still very very necessary (unlikely) than I and many others will say "ok, let's now mandate it".
As for the silly "narrative" point, you are conflating "narrative" with not thinking for yourself. I, and millions of others, think for ourselves. The fact that a "narrative" exists overlapping with what I think for myself, does not mean that I must not have thought for myself. Just because Tucker Carlson or Rachael Maddow arrive at the same conclusion I do does not mean that I don't think for myself. Indeed, the entire concept of a "narrative" is just silly. It's like "follow the science" - an inexact and useless term that doesn't actually describe anything real or concrete.
You can't believe that the world stands still... "proven safe" would certainly not have been true to the spirit of your post when they were mandated... you are looking back on something and arm chair QBing... plenty of people had issues with vaccines back in the day and it's a very large narrative today with the "traditional" vaccines... whether it's that they give you mercury poisoning or cause autism, it's clear that there was always an anti-vaxx narrative even before we started with COVID drama.
Technology has exploded and to not acknowledge that is a bit obtuse... development of "universal flu shot" (virus) has been in the works... alternate treatments or preventative measures have always been researched constantly... granted, it's very easy to be frightened of the science behind mRNA... especially for an old school thinker... but science marches on, for good and for bad... you either believe in science or you don't, it is that simple for me... we need science to fight a virus that was man made.
So a term like "follow the science" should always be taken with a grain of salt because it matters WHO is saying it... if it's Fauci, a proven narcissist and liar, that is not the same as faulting every scientist who says it... ALL politicians are saying it, both sides... so it is open to interpretation... but, it doesn't mean that Fauci is leading some leftist depopulation effort bankrolled by Gates and Soros to have the vaccine kill everyone in a couple of years... yet, there are people who believe that and use "follow the science" as a way to justify that thinking.
You're right, thinking for yourself does overlap narratives in some cases... but, as you clearly state here you are not anti vaxx, just anti mandate... and you're making that argument intelligently without falling into the narrative trap that there is some giant global conspiracy agenda at play... that is a big, big difference.
Whatever you say. I have writtten grant proposals and gotten them awarded. If a researcher is begging for $, maybe their proposal is worth exactly that much. But again, completely off topic.
And that's where certain grants come into play. Not every bit of science or research starts out being a money maker. Glad it was easy for you.
And that's where certain grants come into play. Not every bit of science or research starts out being a money maker. Glad it was easy for you.
So you're a democrat now? Repubs certainly not funneling much money to "public" scientific research. Mostly spending a lot to block it. Guess it helps to know how to apply. Also cute you take a personal swipe at me within every post.
You can't believe that the world stands still... "proven safe" would certainly not have been true to the spirit of your post when they were mandated... you are looking back on something and arm chair QBing... plenty of people had issues with vaccines back in the day and it's a very large narrative today with the "traditional" vaccines... whether it's that they give you mercury poisoning or cause autism, it's clear that there was always an anti-vaxx narrative even before we started with COVID drama.
Technology has exploded and to not acknowledge that is a bit obtuse... development of "universal flu shot" (virus) has been in the works... alternate treatments or preventative measures have always been researched constantly... granted, it's very easy to be frightened of the science behind mRNA... especially for an old school thinker... but science marches on, for good and for bad... you either believe in science or you don't, it is that simple for me... we need science to fight a virus that was man made.
So a term like "follow the science" should always be taken with a grain of salt because it matters WHO is saying it... if it's Fauci, a proven narcissist and liar, that is not the same as faulting every scientist who says it... ALL politicians are saying it, both sides... so it is open to interpretation... but, it doesn't mean that Fauci is leading some leftist depopulation effort bankrolled by Gates and Soros to have the vaccine kill everyone in a couple of years... yet, there are people who believe that and use "follow the science" as a way to justify that thinking.
You're right, thinking for yourself does overlap narratives in some cases... but, as you clearly state here you are not anti vaxx, just anti mandate... and you're making that argument intelligently without falling into the narrative trap that there is some giant global conspiracy agenda at play... that is a big, big difference.
Several things in this post are just completely wrong. There is not a very large narrative against the "traditional" vaccines. This is just demonstrably false. The amount of people in this country who have not taken a polio vaccine, for instance, is infinitesimally small. I know a lot of people, as I am sure you do as well. Virtually none of them have avoided the polio vaccine for their kids. Many of them, by contrast, have not yet taken the covid vaccine and/or have had their kids not take it. The amount of people who complain about mercury poisoning/autism is a very very very small number.
"Proven safe" is not viewed by people in a vacuum. It is viewed in conjunction with efficacy of the vaccine and dangerousness of the virus. For people who intelligently choose to not get the shot, its a combination of the lack of long term data, along with the fact that the vaccine has limited efficacy, and the virus is just not that dangerous to most people. Many of the people who refuse the shot, for instance, have already had covid and did not get that sick. Many in this group get the flu shot every year, but are nervous about the newness of the covid shot. They look at the fact that it's a brand new vaccine, using a new technology, used to combat a virus to which it is only somewhat protective, and a disease which is only somewhat dangerous. All of this is balanced and a calculus is made that maybe they will wait a bit on this vaccine.
Also, I am not arm chair QBing anything. None of the traditional vaccines were mandated within a year of their development.
Yes, technology has exploded. When I have not acknowledged that? This will mean, as you imply, that vaccine development will accelerate. And new methods (like the mRNA) will emerge. How is this relevant to the issue of whether or not the COVID vaccine should be mandated so soon after its development? The answer is: it's not.
Your statement "you either believe in science or you don't, it is that simple for me" is just as silly and useless as the phrase "follow the science". Neither of these phrases are descriptive or helpful in terms of how human beings make decisions. Does the person who chooses to ski down a steep slope not believe in gravity? Does he or she not believe in Newton's second law of motion?
We wouldn't have to force shots on anyone if we were not in the dysfunctional civic state we're in. All these armchair polisci and virolgy wizards didn't exist just a few years ago, let alone when many vax's they take without batting an eye were mandated. They didn't ask, they weren't told. Efficacy was for eggheads with letters after their names. Jabs were civic pride and duty. That kind of thing has long since left the lexicon of American life. We're a nation in decline clinging to some faded "revolutionary" values that are so twisted it's comical. We eat and breathe toxic crap but worry about a vaccine. We scream "we're the best" for fast tracking a vax then "we're patriots" for not taking it. Can't make this stuff up. We're indebted, addicted, obese, mentally ill, declining by every quality of life stat (including life expectancy) so forgive me if I roll my eyes at the zillion pages of "vax bad, mask bad, hoax, not so serious, lib this, con that, Trump this, Biden that, Obama the other." This topic isn't just the same few posters beating a dead horse, it's beating it, shocking it back to life, riding it in the Preakness and then beating it to death again! No one is learning anything new. No one's mind is being changed. It has in fact, driven good forum regulars away. #sad
In the main I think you are correct. I think it's helpful to look at how we got here. When jabs were civic pride and duty - you are going back to a time more than a half century ago. Before the media started lying to the American people, and more commonly, picking and choosing which stories/facts to present and emphasize. Before the media became almost entirely partisan. Before politicians became completely dominated by partisanship. Before people came to consume their news largely through new types of private companies (google, Facebook, twitter) - private companies which have picked a side and have suppressed legitimate news stories and/or shut down legitimate sources of these stories. Now, people, rightfully so, don't believe anything politicians say or the news reports, and are legitimately wondering if legitimate stories which are negative to the vaccine are being suppressed.
As for what you are describing, the polio vaccine comes to mind. In addition to what I have said above, polio was a very dangerous disease that had a very high chance of being very harmful to whoever caught it. It was also very harmful to children. The vaccine itself appeared very early on to be more or less bullet proof (meaning you get the vaccine, you are never, ever getting polio). All of these factors combined to make taking it (and having your kids take it) more or less a no-brainer. None of these factors exist with COVID. People understand these differences, and are making intelligent decisions for themselves.
Some of your talking points are of the same type that you say are driving people from the forum. "We eat and breathe toxic crap but worry about a vaccine." How is this helpful or intelligent? Whatever this toxic crap is, I have been eating and breathing it for a half century, and appear to be fine. The COVID vaccine is brand spanking new. How is this a correct analogy? Also, whatever this toxic crap is, I don't know if I have a choice. But I certainly have a choice as to what I inject into my body (I choose the shots and the booster - other have not). The same with your "we're patriots" statement. How many people are claiming they are "patriots" for not taking the vaccine? .00001% of the population? Five people in their mom's basement? It's not hypocritical to think the development of this vaccine is a great achievement while at the same time believing that it should not be mandated.
In the main I think you are correct. I think it's helpful to look at how we got here. When jabs were civic pride and duty - you are going back to a time more than a half century ago. Before the media started lying to the American people, and more commonly, picking and choosing which stories/facts to present and emphasize. Before the media became almost entirely partisan. Before politicians became completely dominated by partisanship. Before people came to consume their news largely through new types of private companies (google, Facebook, twitter) - private companies which have picked a side and have suppressed legitimate news stories and/or shut down legitimate sources of these stories. Now, people, rightfully so, don't believe anything politicians say or the news reports, and are legitimately wondering if legitimate stories which are negative to the vaccine are being suppressed.
As for what you are describing, the polio vaccine comes to mind. In addition to what I have said above, polio was a very dangerous disease that had a very high chance of being very harmful to whoever caught it. It was also very harmful to children. The vaccine itself appeared very early on to be more or less bullet proof (meaning you get the vaccine, you are never, ever getting polio). All of these factors combined to make taking it (and having your kids take it) more or less a no-brainer. None of these factors exist with COVID. People understand these differences, and are making intelligent decisions for themselves.
Some of your talking points are of the same type that you say are driving people from the forum. "We eat and breathe toxic crap but worry about a vaccine." How is this helpful or intelligent? Whatever this toxic crap is, I have been eating and breathing it for a half century, and appear to be fine. The COVID vaccine is brand spanking new. How is this a correct analogy? Also, whatever this toxic crap is, I don't know if I have a choice. But I certainly have a choice as to what I inject into my body (I choose the shots and the booster - other have not). The same with your "we're patriots" statement. How many people are claiming they are "patriots" for not taking the vaccine? .00001% of the population? Five people in their mom's basement? It's not hypocritical to think the development of this vaccine is a great achievement while at the same time believing that it should not be mandated.
So don't mandate it and let's all drag this **** along until we're teaching our kids Mandarin. I don't really care. You people put that stuff in my mouth I didn't. I am a known pragmatist. I've given up on my fellowes and look forward to the decline and then potential gentrification of America in whatever form it takes, but then, I'll be pushing up daisies from the root side long before then. MY apologies that my writing style isn't dry and humorless enough for you. I prefer to dwell in sarcasm/facetiousness after the rapid and disgusting decline of this forum...and believe me jack, I aint the one driving them out...and if I am, I should get the $500 MVP poster award on first ballot! I did get Broke tossed once but it cost me a week in the hotbox. yee-haa! Like Braveheart, "yes I am a savage, but I never lie."
The bottom line is some seem to fear the thing and some don't. Fine, but don't call yer'self patriots or forward thinkers. You're just scared and skeptical. Fair enough all day long. Limited data (that's right, I agree with you data is new and limited) seems clear though that the "jab" (whatever MSM hype name people fawn over) will almost certainly keep myself and friends OFF a ventilator and IN a restaurant, keeping us and the economy alive. I support all that with my arm. I also mask and distance, cause it seems like a decent thing to do to help the many many many immunocompromised (most poor schmucks on meds in America which is more than half the country; anyone taken a corticosteroid recently? prednisolone? blood pressure meds? Many others? Congrats! You're immunocompromised!). I also have friends dealing with various cancers. When I think of people who will not vax, mask, distance AND spout misinfo for no other reason than to instigate and muddy the issue, yeah, I get a little ticked. But I have low expectations of people now, particularly on LI. Do whatever you guys like. Tell yourself whatever you like. Believe whatever you like. That's all this forum is now anyway. Tone deaf, selfish b*tches gladhanding each other for 75 pages. Merry New Year!
Last edited by monstermagnet; 12-08-2021 at 10:45 AM..
So don't mandate it and let's all drag this **** along until we're teaching our kids Mandarin. I don't really care. You people put that stuff in my mouth I didn't. I am a known pragmatist. I've given up on my fellowes and look forward to the decline and then potential gentrification of America in whatever form it takes, but then, I'll be pushing up daisies from the root side long before then. MY apologies that my writing style isn't dry and humorless enough for you. I prefer to dwell in sarcasm/facetiousness after the rapid and disgusting decline of this forum...and believe me jack, I aint the one driving them out...and if I am, I should get the $500 MVP poster award on first ballot! I did get Broke tossed once but it cost me a week in the hotbox. yee-haa! Like Braveheart, "yes I am a savage, but I never lie."
The bottom line is some seem to fear the thing and some don't. Fine, but don't call yer'self patriots or forward thinkers. You're just scared and skeptical. Fair enough all day long. Limited data (that's right, I agree with you data is new and limited) seems clear though that the "jab" (whatever MSM hype name people fawn over) will almost certainly keep myself and friends OFF a ventilator and IN a restaurant, keeping us and the economy alive. I support all that with my arm. I also mask and distance, cause it seems like a decent thing to do to help the many many many immunocompromised (most poor schmucks on meds in America which is more than half the country; anyone taken a corticosteroid recently? prednisolone? blood pressure meds? Many others? Congrats! You're immunocompromised!). I also have friends dealing with various cancers. When I think of people who will not vax, mask, distance AND spout misinfo for no other reason than to instigate and muddy the issue, yeah, I get a little ticked. But I have low expectations of people now, particularly on LI. Do whatever you guys like. Tell yourself whatever you like. Believe whatever you like. That's all this forum is now anyway. Tone deaf, selfish b*tches gladhanding each other for 75 pages. Merry New Year!
So don't mandate it and let's all drag this **** along until we're teaching our kids Mandarin. I don't really care. You people put that stuff in my mouth I didn't. I am a known pragmatist. I've given up on my fellowes and look forward to the decline and then potential gentrification of America in whatever form it takes, but then, I'll be pushing up daisies from the root side long before then. MY apologies that my writing style isn't dry and humorless enough for you. I prefer to dwell in sarcasm/facetiousness after the rapid and disgusting decline of this forum...and believe me jack, I aint the one driving them out...and if I am, I should get the $500 MVP poster award on first ballot! I did get Broke tossed once but it cost me a week in the hotbox. yee-haa! Like Braveheart, "yes I am a savage, but I never lie."
The bottom line is some seem to fear the thing and some don't. Fine, but don't call yer'self patriots or forward thinkers. You're just scared and skeptical. Fair enough all day long. Limited data (that's right, I agree with you data is new and limited) seems clear though that the "jab" (whatever MSM hype name people fawn over) will almost certainly keep myself and friends OFF a ventilator and IN a restaurant, keeping us and the economy alive. I support all that with my arm. I also mask and distance, cause it seems like a decent thing to do to help the many many many immunocompromised (most poor schmucks on meds in America which is more than half the country; anyone taken a corticosteroid recently? prednisolone? blood pressure meds? Many others? Congrats! You're immunocompromised!). I also have friends dealing with various cancers. When I think of people who will not vax, mask, distance AND spout misinfo for no other reason than to instigate and muddy the issue, yeah, I get a little ticked. But I have low expectations of people now, particularly on LI. Do whatever you guys like. Tell yourself whatever you like. Believe whatever you like. That's all this forum is now anyway. Tone deaf, selfish b*tches gladhanding each other for 75 pages. Merry New Year!
Lol good post MM
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