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Yea, that's quite possibly what happens, but I think the important thing for renters is to be aware of that and thus to factor that in when renting. After all, when landlords include heat and hot water in rent, it's not like they don't include that in their actual expenses when deciding the rent to charge. Instead, they assume a certain cost and incorporate the flat cost. It's important that renters understand though when there is a change and that these are not included. It's also important to know if the electric heat and hot water is via heat pumps which would have fairly nominal power draw or if they are from resistance heat which is substantially less efficient.
I do think this, while probably going to be rife with growing pains, is the better solution than systems where the heating is turned on and off at will (or for NYC at least, I believe it's on when under 50F) as people have different preferences for what they'd like the ambient temperature to be and for some, 51F is quite cold. It also incentives at the point of use using as much energy as actually necessary.
Just like how I include water in my rentals. It’s on avg $40 a month I build in $215 a month. I need to make 4-5x on all $$ I spend. These landlords are tripling the real cost of utils, they stand to make out very well if they can start having tenants pay all the utils as the rent isn’t going down because they don’t have to pay heat and hw anymore.
Just like how I include water in my rentals. It’s on avg $40 a month I build in $215 a month. I need to make 4-5x on all $$ I spend. These landlords are tripling the real cost of utils, they stand to make out very well if they can start having tenants pay all the utils as the rent isn’t going down because they don’t have to pay heat and hw anymore.
Right--the landlords are *already* including the cost of heat and hot water as part of the rental bill so renters are already paying for heat and hot water, it's just that they aren't seeing the itemized amount for it but rather what's essentially billed in as part of a flat rate. Conversion to electric heat and hot water as part of the utility separates it out, but landlords aren't likely to voluntarily then adjust how much they charge for rent downwards once that cost of heat and hot water is no longer effectively incorporated into that rent charge. That's why it behooves the renters to be aware of this and to ask what kind of electric heat and hot water (heat pump or resistance) is being used and what an estimated monthly price range for these are.
One question is that given the installation cost of electrical resistance heat and hot water is notably lower than that of heat pumps (and virtually anything else), what mechanism is there to persuade landlords to choose heat pumps versus resistance heat. The federal government is trying to do a bit of that by giving a tax credit for the initial purchase price and there will perhaps be greater information and common knowledge among renters and buyers to look for heat pumps rather than resistance heat, but how bumpy that road is and how savvy people will actually be is uncertain. For home owners / buyers though that plan to live in their residences though. the decision is generally a lot easier.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 01-10-2023 at 02:29 PM..
I don't mean they are overpriced for performance. I mean they are overpriced in general. Until that changes they will not be mass adopted. You can get for an example, a kia Telluride base model for 35k, a full sized SUV with a ton of practicality. An EV of the same size we are talking 80+ K easy. Also the national charging infrastructure is still awful for road trips outside of Tesla (Full disclosure I own 2 EV's and am well aware of their positives and shortcomings). This will hopefully improve but it has been slow going. We still have a ways to go.
Yea, I think the projected time for when battery electric vehicles hit broad price parity in the US for all market segments is when batteries reach about $100/kwh of capacity on the pack level. We're at about $150 something now down from about $1,000/kwh around 2010, so it's getting there.
It's been first the premium segment, people buying at or above median new vehicle purchase prices that shift to EVs first, and that shift is accelerating rapidly. I think that's pretty expected. Judging from how other markets have gone after hitting certain milestones in EV adoption rates though, I think it's pretty likely that towards the end of this decade, we'll see plug-ins (mostly BEVs, some PHEVs) take majority of *new* vehicle market share in the US.
For people who aren't too familiar with EVs, here's a condensed partial explanation for why EVs are being launched in the premium segments first:
In the more premium segments, EVs are already at purchase price parity in the US. The thing is, with more range you add, which for various reasons is more prized here than in the European and Chinese markets, generally then the larger the battery capacity you'll need and that gets pricey. Generally, the larger the battery capacity you have, the higher your maximum power charge and discharge rates are. So when you put in a large battery pack, you're generally also allowing for very large power output, and since electric motors are very power dense and quite cheap in comparison to engines, this means that most automakers once they put in a large battery pack decide to just go ahead and put in powerful motors. Now, that large capacity battery pack is pricey, so you have to go higher up in the market segment and that fits very well with also the segment that wants performance. It also happens to work well with the segment that often places a premium on low noise, harshness, and vibration as electric motors since they're so efficient are also very quiet in comparison to engines for the same level of power output and need far less sound dampening materials. People who buy premium vehicles are also often home owners or have some pathway towards charging at home.
Generally, it's because the heat pump over a period of time will have saved money in operations over other sources due to heat pumps being far more efficient in most situations....
I don't know that I believe that, although the experience that I offer is anecdotal, and locally sourced.
Is a heat pump more efficient? That's a possibility that I would entertain. Is it less expensive to operate? Anecdotal, real life, experience, says hell no; it's not even close.
Could a heat pump cost the same, if not less, to operate than her natural gas counterpart *in NYS*? Perhaps, but only because the cost of natural gas in NYS is astronomical.
Yea, I think the projected time for when battery electric vehicles hit broad price parity in the US for all market segments is when batteries reach about $100/kwh of capacity on the pack level. We're at about $150 something now down from about $1,000/kwh around 2010, so it's getting there.
It's been first the premium segment, people buying at or above median new vehicle purchase prices that shift to EVs first, and that shift is accelerating rapidly. I think that's pretty expected. Judging from how other markets have gone after hitting certain milestones in EV adoption rates though, I think it's pretty likely that towards the end of this decade, we'll see plug-ins (mostly BEVs, some PHEVs) take majority of *new* vehicle market share in the US.
For people who aren't too familiar with EVs, here's a condensed partial explanation for why EVs are being launched in the premium segments first:
In the more premium segments, EVs are already at purchase price parity in the US. The thing is, with more range you add, which for various reasons is more prized here than in the European and Chinese markets, generally then the larger the battery capacity you'll need and that gets pricey. Generally, the larger the battery capacity you have, the higher your maximum power charge and discharge rates are. So when you put in a large battery pack, you're generally also allowing for very large power output, and since electric motors are very power dense and quite cheap in comparison to engines, this means that most automakers once they put in a large battery pack decide to just go ahead and put in powerful motors. Now, that large capacity battery pack is pricey, so you have to go higher up in the market segment and that fits very well with also the segment that wants performance. It also happens to work well with the segment that often places a premium on low noise, harshness, and vibration as electric motors since they're so efficient are also very quiet in comparison to engines for the same level of power output and need far less sound dampening materials. People who buy premium vehicles are also often home owners or have some pathway towards charging at home.
It’s been more slow going than many predicted. There are even signs demand is starting to soften in China as well as the US (and please don’t mention Norway they are a tiny rich country with a population a bit bigger than Alabama, they don’t count). No way will it be majority of cars sold by 2030. One day they will be but it will be a lot further out than some people think. Another massive issue is sourcing the components needed for batteries, which is proving to be much more difficult then many first thought. There are frankly mountain of issues many of which there’s no clear answers for yet.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NDL
I don't know that I believe that, although the experience that I offer is anecdotal, and locally sourced.
Is a heat pump more efficient? That's a possibility that I would entertain. Is it less expensive to operate? Anecdotal, real life, experience, says hell no; it's not even close.
Could a heat pump cost the same, if not less, to operate than her natural gas counterpart *in NYS*? Perhaps, but only because the cost of natural gas in NYS is astronomical.
Heat pumps are cost efficient when compared to Electric Resistance Heating and normally better than oil heat plus you have central air. Gas by me is reasonable but I realize like everything NY jacks up the prices.
What people don't realize is Heat Pump normally have some type of emergency/auxiliary heating source my upstairs unit uses heating strips these kick in on the coldest of days but I have an older unit not designed for extreme cold. My neighbor has a gas auxiliary heat source which in the coldest weather you switch to emergency mode and run it as a gas furnace, that would be the best in NY.
A heat pump would be good for most of the heating season with a gas auxiliary that could address the coldest days, best of both worlds.
I don't know that I believe that, although the experience that I offer is anecdotal, and locally sourced.
Is a heat pump more efficient? That's a possibility that I would entertain. Is it less expensive to operate? Anecdotal, real life, experience, says hell no; it's not even close.
Could a heat pump cost the same, if not less, to operate than her natural gas counterpart *in NYS*? Perhaps, but only because the cost of natural gas in NYS is astronomical.
And electricity in NY is cheap? We are paying 28c kWh on LI. Gas is dependent on usage as the price drops like a brick once you pass 53 therms. 150 therms is $1.75 per therm. Our high electric rates erode savings of electric items the ev savings are crushed here.
Heat pumps are cost efficient when compared to Electric Resistance Heating and normally better than oil heat plus you have central air. Gas by me is reasonable but I realize like everything NY jacks up the prices.
Very much so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gx89
And electricity in NY is cheap? We are paying 28c kWh on LI. Gas is dependent on usage as the price drops like a brick once you pass 53 therms. 150 therms is $1.75 per therm. Our high electric rates erode savings of electric items the ev savings are crushed here.
Not at all, but home heating fuel costs are outrageous in NY, (comparative to other States).
NY electric rates are absolutely bananas.
It’s sickening. Debatable which is more puke inducing, the electric rates or property taxes.
My father in law buys oil to for heat. Waaaay more expensive than electricity
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