LAPD Still Won't Get Vaccinated (Los Angeles, Stanford: second mortgage, schools, university)

[2sleepy]

Originally Posted by capoeira

Vaccination really worked in Israel until it didn't. It is a very temporary therapeutic that fades out after 4 to 8 months.

https://www.sott.net/article/456689-...are-vaccinated

"An Israeli reporter from News Israel 13 interviewed Dr. Kobi Haviv, who is the director of the Herzog Hospital in Jerusalem.

She began by saying, "I understand that most of the patients are vaccinated, even 'severe' patients."

...85-90% of the hospitalizations here are fully vaccinated people."

__________________________________________________ ______________

Since many firefighters and police have already had covid, it would be insanely stupid to require them to get a vaccine based on the latest data from Israel.

https://fee.org/articles/harvard-epi...st-demolished/

"In Israel, vaccinated individuals had 27 times higher risk of symptomatic COVID infection compared to those with natural immunity from prior COVID disease"

__________________________________________________ ______________

For healthy young people the side effects from the clotshot are much more of a risk. Look at some of the vaccine horror stories posted by medical professionals on Medscape. When this site was first posted on City-data there were about 200 comments. Now there are over 1900 comments.

https://www.medscape.com/sites/publi...c=soc_fb_share


"Having personal experience with colleagues and friends who've developed myocarditis after the Pfizer vaccine, Bell's Palsy, fatal myocardial infarction two days after getting the J&J vaccine, transverse myelitis from Moderna along with people who were fully vaccinated yet got myocarditis from Covid, severe respiratory insufficiency, severe distal neuropathy, not to mention symptomatic Covid infections requiring up to 2 weeks off - I can tell you that the reactions are A) not as rare as they are trying to pass them off "

"I have treated a lot of obvious adverse effects of the vaccine (pfizer and Moderna). Including 5 patients who had ischemic strokes within 7 days of the shot, 2 anaphylaxis shock patients, 2 LE paralysis, several new onset autoimmune disease."

"first Pfizer vaccine in March this year, a few days after I experienced severe pain in my joints which continued over the weeks to the point I could not walk,or get out of bed. Just extreme pain and stiffness in all my joints, especially shoulders, lower back and legs. After eventually being seen by a doctor, they advised that I was having a reaction to the vaccine."

"a (44yrs) family friend died of a cerebral hemorrhage within a week of her shot. "

Many other vaccine adverse events are documented in the 1900+ comments.

Sorry I saw nothing there that justifies exempting Police and Firefighters from getting vaccinated.
The medscape link is filled with anecdotal comments, nothing to support any of the claims. Vaers data regarding conditions that occurred after being vaccinated occur at similar numbers for the same age groups in people who were not vaccinated.

One of the studies you cite was a pre-publication of a study that had not been peer reviewed.

Fee.org (a right wing organization) features Dr. Martin Kulldorff who is an avid anti-lockdown proponent, here's what the guardian had to say about him: "The controversial proposal was published by a right-leaning American thinktank, the American Institute for Economic Research. It was drawn up by three researchers – Dr Sunetra Gupta of Oxford University, Dr Jay Bhattacharya of Stanford University, and Kulldorff – and has garnered thousands of signatures from health professionals. However, on 9 October, Sky News revealed that many of the “medical” signatories of the open letter were homeopaths, therapists or used obviously fake names, such as Dr Johnny Bananas and Dr Person Fakename, leading to accusations that the total number exaggerated the scale of scientific support."

As far as the shocking news from Israel, it's really not shocking, you just cherry picked your sources: https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlo...psons-paradox/

Immunity after recovering from covid seems to last between 3 and 10 months https://whyy.org/articles/what-immun...eed-a-vaccine/

And the narrative of a firefighter struggling to explain why he doesn't want to get vaccinated was not very convincing.

[2sleepy]

Originally Posted by goodheathen

You expect me to trust the sources provided by someone who calls it the "clotshot"?

Even the Medscape comments don't mean much, because doctors can be loons (and I don't know if one has to be a medical professional to comment there).

This is not about the safety of the vaccine, which so far seems good. People need to take their misguided agendas elsewhere.

To the extent that effectiveness of the vaccine is relevant to whether it should be mandated for police (many of whom are old enough or unwell enough to be at risk from COVID-19), it is a factor, but if for most non-elderly people the protection is strong for more than half a year, it's worth it. That is more safety than other methods provide. Do people forget what things were like before vaccines? Appreciate the now, and let science come up with more effective vaccines in the future.

Also, I think in the meantime police officers shouldn't be riding together if neither is fully vaccinated.

I agree, most of the so called evidence is not evidence at all, it's a lot of anecdotal nonsense and scientific data that is taken out of context

[goodheathen]

Originally Posted by 2sleepy

Sorry I saw nothing there that justifies exempting Police and Firefighters from getting vaccinated.
The medscape link is filled with anecdotal comments, nothing to support any of the claims. Vaers data regarding conditions that occurred after being vaccinated occur at similar numbers for the same age groups in people who were not vaccinated.

One of the studies you cite was a pre-publication of a study that had not been peer reviewed.

Fee.org (a right wing organization) features Dr. Martin Kulldorff who is an avid anti-lockdown proponent, here's what the guardian had to say about him: "The controversial proposal was published by a right-leaning American thinktank, the American Institute for Economic Research. It was drawn up by three researchers – Dr Sunetra Gupta of Oxford University, Dr Jay Bhattacharya of Stanford University, and Kulldorff – and has garnered thousands of signatures from health professionals. However, on 9 October, Sky News revealed that many of the “medical” signatories of the open letter were homeopaths, therapists or used obviously fake names, such as Dr Johnny Bananas and Dr Person Fakename, leading to accusations that the total number exaggerated the scale of scientific support."

As far as the shocking news from Israel, it's really not shocking, you just cherry picked your sources: https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlo...psons-paradox/

Immunity after recovering from covid seems to last between 3 and 10 months https://whyy.org/articles/what-immun...eed-a-vaccine/

And the narrative of a firefighter struggling to explain why he doesn't want to get vaccinated was not very convincing.

It wasn't convincing at all. None of those points would win in court. It was interesting to hear what firefighters think, but they're subscribed to misinformation and paranoia. Speaking of that, when I looked into the aborted-tissue issue, Google led a surprisingly good LA government webpage.
http://publichealth.lacounty.gov/med...lCellLines.pdf
The government should be bringing in medical professionals to do Q&A with police employees.

Also, Johnson & Johnson should be suggested to LAPD who think they have some immunity. Because it's just one shot and not mRNA, lower theoretical risk.

I think the most effective legal challenge might be to question why LAPD hasn't tried regular testing first, if it hasn't. The police should be tested regularly, regardless of vaccines.

Thanks for the laugh about the fake names. Best laugh I've had on this forum in a while.

[mcp86]

As far as the shocking news from Israel, it's really not shocking, you just cherry picked your sources: https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlo...psons-paradox/

To explain more in detail on what 2sleepy shared,

https://www.covid-datascience.com/po...are-vaccinated

[2sleepy]

Originally Posted by goodheathen

It wasn't convincing at all. None of those points would win in court. It was interesting to hear what firefighters think, but they're subscribed to misinformation and paranoia. Speaking of that, when I looked into the aborted-tissue issue, Google led a surprisingly good LA government webpage.
http://publichealth.lacounty.gov/med...lCellLines.pdf
The government should be bringing in medical professionals to do Q&A with police employees.

Also, Johnson & Johnson should be suggested to LAPD who think they have some immunity. Because it's just one shot and not mRNA, lower theoretical risk.

I think the most effective legal challenge might be to question why LAPD hasn't tried regular testing first, if it hasn't. The police should be tested regularly, regardless of vaccines.

Thanks for the laugh about the fake names. Best laugh I've had on this forum in a while.

The biggest joke of all is that the Police Union wants the City to pay for testing for the special snowflakes who refuse to get vaccinated. I would call their bluff, most of them will never find a job that pays as well and what are they going to do, move to Idaho get half the pay they are receiving now and uproot their family? I just don't believe it.

[CA4Now]

Originally Posted by Nyfinestbxtf

No, but you claimed that the predominant spread of covid is from the unvaccinated. There is no evidence of that.

Do you read the information linked? Are you stating that the CDC makes up their studies to try to pull one over on us? Is Rochelle Walensky, M.D., faking these studies?

From previous links on this thread:
Sept 15 updated CDC information - New U.S. studies released Friday show the COVID-19 vaccines remain highly effective against hospitalizations and death even as the extra-contagious delta variant swept the country.

One study tracked over 600,000 COVID-19 cases in 13 states from April through mid-July. As delta surged in early summer, those who were unvaccinated were 4.5 times more likely than the fully vaccinated to get infected, over 10 times more likely to be hospitalized and 11 times more likely to die, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

“Vaccination works,” Dr. Rochelle Walensky, CDC’s director, told a White House briefing Friday. “The bottom line is this: We have the scientific tools we need to turn the corner on this pandemic.”

[(901)]

Thank God for Donald Trump or there would be no vaccine

[Nyfinestbxtf]

Originally Posted by CA4Now

Do you read the information linked? Are you stating that the CDC makes up their studies to try to pull one over on us? Is Rochelle Walensky, M.D., faking these studies?

From previous links on this thread:
Sept 15 updated CDC information - New U.S. studies released Friday show the COVID-19 vaccines remain highly effective against hospitalizations and death even as the extra-contagious delta variant swept the country.

One study tracked over 600,000 COVID-19 cases in 13 states from April through mid-July. As delta surged in early summer, those who were unvaccinated were 4.5 times more likely than the fully vaccinated to get infected, over 10 times more likely to be hospitalized and 11 times more likely to die, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

“Vaccination works,” Dr. Rochelle Walensky, CDC’s director, told a White House briefing Friday. “The bottom line is this: We have the scientific tools we need to turn the corner on this pandemic.”

I’m not arguing against the efficacy of the vaccine preventing hospitalization and death. I’m arguing that your claim and the CDC does not know that most of the spread is among the unvaccinated. 76% of Americans who can be vaccinated are vaccinated and that leaves 24%. How many of that 24% have natural immunity? To state that the majority of the spread of covid is from the unvaccinated is misinformation. No one knows that. The fact is, the vaccinated can be infected with covid and does shed covid. That’s a undisputed fact. Being that is true, there is no articulable argument that can be made to mandate this covid shot.

[joosoon]

Originally Posted by goodheathen

Adequate testing is expensive - unless maybe they start using dogs to screen - and it doesn't do much to reduce transmission and has very little impact on health outcomes.

All of that is your opinion.


My school district offers regular (weekly) onsite testing to any staff, but it's mandatory for any who aren't vaccinated. It's also open to students who opt-in. I'm vaccinated, but I still participate as does just about everyone else I know. Obviously it's not so cost prohibitive if it can be provided at that level in the second largest school district in the state. Maybe you don't see any value in testing, but it's part of a larger plan put together by actual experts to help maintain positive "health outcomes" and keep schools from shutting down again.


Anyone who thinks municipalities should go to the mat over these mandates isn't being realistic. Just allow the testing option, incentivize vaccinations and avoid super costly litigation. There's no winning against police, fire and other public employee unions on the matter.

[joosoon]

Originally Posted by 2sleepy

The biggest joke of all is that the Police Union wants the City to pay for testing for the special snowflakes who refuse to get vaccinated. I would call their bluff, most of them will never find a job that pays as well and what are they going to do, move to Idaho get half the pay they are receiving now and uproot their family? I just don't believe it.

What would the city do? It goes both ways that's why it's better to find a compromise and the compromise is what's becoming pretty standard in contracts which is the testing alternative to vaccination. Even if only 10% of a major PD walked away over this, it would be a huge impact and filling those positions would not come easy.


Ideally, I agree everyone should just get vaccinated but I'm also realistic about the situation and being hard-nosed isn't a solution.