So what happened to Holyoke? (Boston, Worcester: lofts, condo, homes)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
41,938 posts, read 36,940,305 times
Reputation: 40635
Advertisements
Quote:
Originally Posted by IWLC
As far as arts centers improving an area, I don't know. The term 'starving artist' was coined for a reason. It might make it more interesting but it doesn't contribute to the economy. .
Very much disagree on this. Artists are very important to the economy and they are often precursors to gentrification. People come for shows, exhibits, live theatrical and musical performances and that reverberates money throughout the economy and helps transforms neighborhoods. Now, the downside is as those neighborhoods POC and the artists themselves are priced out by this, but yes, its a driver in a community.
Don't take what is happening at a glorified craft and art fair to be the end all and be all.
Very much disagree on this. Artists are very important to the economy and they are often precursors to gentrification. People come for shows, exhibits, live theatrical and musical performances and that reverberates money throughout the economy and helps transforms neighborhoods. Now, the downside is as those neighborhoods POC and the artists themselves are priced out by this, but yes, its a driver in a community.
Don't take what is happening at a glorified craft and art fair to be the end all and be all.
You'd have to show me examples of people from out of town coming for all those shows, theatrical and musical events. Unless it's at the high level of Manhattan, the patrons of the level of 'arts' produced in places like Western Mass are friends and family. Perhaps the symphony draws some out of towners, and of course events like Paradise City are of very high quality - but the majority of the exhibitors are from other areas anyway, but what else? As far as shows like those that come into Symphony Hall or the MMC, those shows leave town with the profits they generate. Just having bodies in town doesn't mean economic benefit.
Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
41,938 posts, read 36,940,305 times
Reputation: 40635
Quote:
Originally Posted by IWLC
You'd have to show me examples of people from out of town coming for all those shows, theatrical and musical events. Unless it's at the high level of Manhattan, the patrons of the level of 'arts' produced in places like Western Mass are friends and family. Perhaps the symphony draws some out of towners, and of course events like Paradise City are of very high quality - but the majority of the exhibitors are from other areas anyway, but what else? As far as shows like those that come into Symphony Hall or the MMC, those shows leave town with the profits they generate. Just having bodies in town doesn't mean economic benefit.
When people are driving in to Hawks and Reed, the Root Cellar, or the Flywheel, or King Street Manor, or how many other venues in addition to gallery and event spaces, you don't think we're spending money shopping, eating, staying over? Ok. You don't think the arts on the ground translates into gentrification in Massachusetts like it has in almost every major U.S. city in transforming neighborhoods? Well, I just don't know what to say. Artists aren't trying to do this, and are often used and discarded to do this by developers, but its happens over and over a again. This is cursory read, and perhaps not the best, but its to the point:
When people are driving in to Hawks and Reed, the Root Cellar, or the Flywheel, or King Street Manor, or how many other venues in addition to gallery and event spaces, you don't think we're spending money shopping, eating, staying over? Ok. You don't think the arts on the ground translates into gentrification in Massachusetts like it has in almost every major U.S. city in transforming neighborhoods? Well, I just don't know what to say. Artists aren't trying to do this, and are often used and discarded to do this by developers, but its happens over and over a again. This is cursory read, and perhaps not the best, but its to the point:
Expecting Holyoke to emulate San Francisco, Boston and Manhattan - areas with the highest incomes in the country with arts events is a bit much. High income people come first and then there's money to patronize arts. Apart from academia and the Longmeadow doctors, there isn't that much high income in the Valley. I think you're talking apples and oranges when you compare the type of wealth that will purchase a $20,000 dining table made by a renowned craftsman and the crowd that comes to open house at Indian Orchard Mills. Let's have some perspective here.
Actually, I was thinking recently, that without the very rich, none of the highly skilled crafts would even exist anymore, and certainly things like ballet and opera wouldn't.
Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
41,938 posts, read 36,940,305 times
Reputation: 40635
Quote:
Originally Posted by IWLC
Expecting Holyoke to emulate San Francisco, Boston and Manhattan - areas with the highest incomes in the country with arts events is a bit much. High income people come first and then there's money to patronize arts. Apart from academia and the Longmeadow doctors, there isn't that much high income in the Valley. I think you're talking apples and oranges when you compare the type of wealth that will purchase a $20,000 dining table made by a renowned craftsman and the crowd that comes to open house at Indian Orchard Mills. Let's have some perspective here.
Actually, I was thinking recently, that without the very rich, none of the highly skilled crafts would even exist anymore, and certainly things like ballet and opera wouldn't.
I don't agree with this at all. Artists (and their ilk) gentrified places like Oakland, then the rich people came. Same with Pittsburgh, artists/musicians have been coming in over the last couple of decades and its turned the city around as the QOL has increased and more young professionals saw it as a good option. Its one of the reasons places like Milwaukee is becoming more trendy. It is why Austin boomed. First came the artists and musicians, then later the tech because the young workforce wanted to be there. The music scene and arts seen came first.
You don't need high earners to forge a creative community, if anything, it works against an area at the start. The creative community creates places that are attractive to the young, educated, modern workforce. A place needs to appeal to those types to grow economically (its not enough, but its necessary). The creative forces come first. Then the wealth. This has been true all over, from parts of SF, to Oakland, to NY, to Austin, to pretty much everywhere with a highly desirable QOL.
You just have it flat backwards. There are loads of books, articles, and studies on how the creative classes are completely woven in the framework of the modern economy and a driver of gentrification. Ignore that reality and remain behind in the modern economy.
I don't agree with this at all. Artists (and their ilk) gentrified places like Oakland, then the rich people came. Same with Pittsburgh, artists/musicians have been coming in over the last couple of decades and its turned the city around as the QOL has increased and more young professionals saw it as a good option. Its one of the reasons places like Milwaukee is becoming more trendy. It is why Austin boomed. First came the artists and musicians, then later the tech because the young workforce wanted to be there. The music scene and arts seen came first.
You don't need high earners to forge a creative community, if anything, it works against an area at the start. The creative community creates places that are attractive to the young, educated, modern workforce. A place needs to appeal to those types to grow economically (its not enough, but its necessary). The creative forces come first. Then the wealth. This has been true all over, from parts of SF, to Oakland, to NY, to Austin, to pretty much everywhere with a highly desirable QOL.
You just have it flat backwards. There are loads of books, articles, and studies on how the creative classes are completely woven in the framework of the modern economy and a driver of gentrification. Ignore that reality and remain behind in the modern economy.
The rich don't just "come". There have to be places that pay high salaries. Oakland is becoming gentrified because San Fransisco was too expensive, same with Harlem. Developers put 10s of millions of dollars into those loft buildings. They didn't come to be close to the starving artists. Loads of books can twist the figures all they want but is the chicken or the egg. Unless there is an industry that is paying those young professionals 200 grand a year, they aren't going to materialize from anywhere else. Gentrification requires money and there isn't any in Holyoke. You are welcome to look up income demographics if you like - right here in CD.
I think you are a bit naive in your thinking about the type and level of art and craftsmanship that attracts the wealthy. I don't know if you've ever seen the work that is shown in the galleries of San Francisco and South Beach. The artists in this area are happy to sell a couple of 100 paintings at a show. It is a part time hobby, at best. I'm sorry to tell you, but this area has produced almost nobody who could compete on the world stage, and I'm talking everything from music to dance to fine arts. A friend of mine who is a glass artist in Vermont and has work in galleries in Houston, Miami Los Angeles and Chicago told me it is a waste of time to even show in this area. There just isn't the money that can afford his work. Unless you're talking about someone like Josh Simpson, you'd be hard pressed to find someone even supporting themselves on the proceeds of their work.
Don't get me wrong, I'm happy that people with creative dreams have a place to work, but the term 'thriving arts community' in Western Mass is not what it means in a metropolitan area. If that wasn't the case, Indian Orchard would be Back Bay.
Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
41,938 posts, read 36,940,305 times
Reputation: 40635
Quote:
Originally Posted by IWLC
The rich don't just "come". There have to be places that pay high salaries. Oakland is becoming gentrified because San Fransisco was too expensive, same with Harlem. Developers put 10s of millions of dollars into those loft buildings. They didn't come to be close to the starving artists. Loads of books can twist the figures all they want but is the chicken or the egg. Unless there is an industry that is paying those young professionals 200 grand a year, they aren't going to materialize from anywhere else. Gentrification requires money and there isn't any in Holyoke. You are welcome to look up income demographics if you like - right here in CD.
Rich don't come from outsdie of the community. They are made in the community, and move around neighborhoods. And yes, developers do for starving artists (I meet very few that are actually starving). I guess you won't read the book I posted the link to about how developers and regions do exactly that.
Money is made. What makes it? Adding value, creating, new products, innovation. Those often start with and are driven by the creative classes. Of all the people I know working in the Seaport district in tech start ups like AI firms, where do they come from? Places like RISD. Creative design people. It's used by everything. What was the Innovation District before what is now? Artist spaces.
No, there isn't money in Holyoke, which is why they need to make it to prosper. That requires investing the creative arts and culture, and later their kin, innovation and start ups and wealth creators. First comes a place where people want to live, which are created by artists.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IWLC
I think you are a bit naive in your thinking about the type and level of art and craftsmanship that attracts the wealthy. I don't know if you've ever seen the work that is shown in the galleries of San Francisco and South Beach. The artists in this area are happy to sell a couple of 100 paintings at a show. It is a part time hobby, at best. I'm sorry to tell you, but this area has produced almost nobody who could compete on the world stage, and I'm talking everything from music to dance to fine arts. A friend of mine who is a glass artist in Vermont and has work in galleries in Houston, Miami Los Angeles and Chicago told me it is a waste of time to even show in this area. There just isn't the money that can afford his work. Unless you're talking about someone like Josh Simpson, you'd be hard pressed to find someone even supporting themselves on the proceeds of their work.
I lived in SF and been to many!, and you're missing the clientele and the scene all together. It isn't about artists selling in galleries to the rich, it is about creating, it is about creating a community and neighborhood and a vibe. Yes, that pays the bills better. I've known artist after artist that bails on custom furniture or installation sculpture. Those are not the arts I'm talking about, the creative arts include design, food creation, logo and font design, industrial design... these are all creative arts by artists. And why are you assuming the artists need to be supporting themselves on their works? I know several that do (they mostly don't sell to the rich at all!), but why is that your goal? That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about changing neighborhoods and gentrification and making a place where people, especially young educated people that are drivers of growth economies want to locate to. Where are those? Places with strong creative fields, arts, music, creative innovative start ups that utilitize creative talents. Places absolutely can decide to become those places if they invest in them. Many places do, and have reaped the rewards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IWLC
Don't get me wrong, I'm happy that people with creative dreams have a place to work, but the term 'thriving arts community' in Western Mass is not what it means in a metropolitan area. If that wasn't the case, Indian Orchard would be Back Bay.
Never said it created it, but without it, you won't turn an area around. Back bay and Boston has loads of arts, lots of it is now priced out, for sure, but before lots of the areas that are now rich were rich, they were turned around by the artists. They created the neighborhoods and attracted the young professionals that drove the economy. Sure, they also have to invest in education, incubators and accelerator st to promote innovation and start ups, but you can't do that in a vacccum. You have to have a place where young talent wants to live and work, that isn't just about jobs, that is about having neighborhoods burgeoning with life created by the arts.
100 people spending $10 each does a lot more for a place than 1 person spending $1000. Especially when local. It isn't about the spending of the rich, its about building a community and having money reverberate throughout a community, the economic multipliers of this activity is a driver for growth as well.
Why do I and so many people live in Providence and not say, Worcester? It isn't closer to work for most of us I know. It's because of the arts scene and the quality of life that creates. My commute is 2x that of Worcester, but, the quality of life is higher here... thanks to the creative classes. Lets hope I just don't get priced out.
You'd have to show me examples of people from out of town coming for all those shows, theatrical and musical events. Unless it's at the high level of Manhattan, the patrons of the level of 'arts' produced in places like Western Mass are friends and family. Perhaps the symphony draws some out of towners, and of course events like Paradise City are of very high quality - but the majority of the exhibitors are from other areas anyway, but what else? As far as shows like those that come into Symphony Hall or the MMC, those shows leave town with the profits they generate. Just having bodies in town doesn't mean economic benefit.
Gateway City Arts in Holyoke draws out of towners for events. More broadly in Western Mass, I regularly run in to Eastern MA folks at the Green River Festival and Wormtown in Greenfield. Hawks and Reed and the Root Cellar have featured a few concerts lately where legendary bands skipped Boston on their tour schedules and played Western MA instead. And Boston people showed up. I have some friends in Boston area who are total music fiends express envy at (and on a few occasions drove many many miles to attend) some of the shows put on at Western Mass venues in the past several years.
More broadly your statement is plain condescending and wrong. Successful artists don’t need to reside in or around a city. They may need to sell there to take advantage of rich tools, but many can and do live wherever they want and work remotely in a place that inspires them. That includes many taking advantage of Western MA’s incredible quality of life and inspiring beauty, perhaps even choosing it over a rat race strip mall suburban hellhole like Burlington.
The arts won’t carry the economies of these places, but to paint the region as a place with no arts appeal to anyone but friends and family is flat wrong.
What about the theater companies in the Berkshires? No one but friends and family show up, right?
Rich don't come from outsdie of the community. They are made in the community, and move around neighborhoods.
You keep talking as though there is some entity that is creating wealth in this area. There isn't and hasn't been since the age of manufacturing. Where is the Silicon Valley equivalent in the Pioneer valley? I don't care what the age, any wealthy people in the area give Holyoke a wide berth.
Springfield has labored under the naive assumption for a long time that they can attract yuppies. When they built Monarch place they believed that young professionals would be flocking to live downtown and every available apartment building was turned into condos. They didn't and investors bought up the condos and rented them, often as Section 8.
Logo designers? you're stretching a bit there.
Anyway, I won't read the book and nothing that relates to Coastal California or Greenwich village is applicable to Western Mass - nothing.
I like areas with vibes, and no harm in having those delusions, but I can absolutely assure you that Holyoke will never be much more than it has ever been.
Gateway City Arts in Holyoke draws out of towners for events. More broadly in Western Mass, I regularly run in to Eastern MA folks at the Green River Festival and Wormtown in Greenfield. Hawks and Reed and the Root Cellar have featured a few concerts lately where legendary bands skipped Boston on their tour schedules and played Western MA instead. And Boston people showed up. I have some friends in Boston area who are total music fiends express envy at (and on a few occasions drove many many miles to attend) some of the shows put on at Western Mass venues in the past several years.
More broadly your statement is plain condescending and wrong. Successful artists don’t need to reside in or around a city. They may need to sell there to take advantage of rich tools, but many can and do live wherever they want and work remotely in a place that inspires them. That includes many taking advantage of Western MA’s incredible quality of life and inspiring beauty, perhaps even choosing it over a rat race strip mall suburban hellhole like Burlington.
The arts won’t carry the economies of these places, but to paint the region as a place with no arts appeal to anyone but friends and family is flat wrong.
What about the theater companies in the Berkshires? No one but friends and family show up, right?
Did you forget that this thread is about Holyoke, not the Berkshires?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
