Are you for or against vaccine passports for massechusetts? Poll (schools, exemptions)

[htfdcolt]

Originally Posted by thebruiser500

Really interesting how the poll shows most people are opposed to the covid shot mandate, yet most posts here are by very aggressive vocal people saying it’s no big deal and they definitely are fine using coercion to force other people to take injections.

Again...real scientific poll

[tribecavsbrowns]

Originally Posted by massnative71

So no taking into account the fact that everything is open now, people are going about their lives as normal and not to even mention the DRAMATICALLY higher transmission of Omicron? You are either being deliberately obtuse, or you simply have no understanding of what is going on. There is no point trying to have a discussion with you in either case there.

There's always an excuse. And nobody ever feels the need to quantify anything. It's just always, "the vaccines are working, they just have so much working against them.

Baloney.

If you are mandating a vaccine to stop the spread of a virus, I would like to see repeated instances where vaccine uptake has reduced the spread of the virus within a population. We don't have that with these vaccines. You know it and I know it.

[htfdcolt]

Originally Posted by tribecavsbrowns

There's no case for vaccine passports, because these vaccines don't do much, if anything, to slow transmission of the virus. That's it. No need to stereotype, or belittle, or name-call, when the facts are on your side. Contrast that with some of the other posters on here (we know who they are).

Following this logic, all kinds of yesteryear diseases (polio, measles, ad infinitum) would still be rampant. There's a simple reason why we don't--all 50 states require a far more onerous vaccine "passport" to enroll in public schools & universities.

[htfdcolt]

Originally Posted by tribecavsbrowns

There's always an excuse. And nobody ever feels the need to quantify anything. It's just always, "the vaccines are working, they just have so much working against them.

Baloney.

If you are mandating a vaccine to stop the spread of a virus, I would like to see repeated instances where vaccine uptake has reduced the spread of the virus within a population. We don't have that with these vaccines. You know it and I know it.

The vaccines were expressly developed (and advertised) to greatly reduce death & hospitalization from a communicable disease. That alone should give all businesses incentive to mandate it. The fact that transmission *will* drop off over time, because there's simply fewer host bodies for a virus to go to in a highly vaccinated population, is a side benefit.

[timberline742]

I have zero idea how people are getting to their conclusions. It makes zero sense to look at raw numbers and not adjust for testing efforts. Mass and RI are near the top at testing efforts. In addition, adjustments will be made for demographic differences and climate differences (degree days, both forcing people inside more for heat or for cold). This is just part of basic public health data analysis. Apples to apples, not raw numbers tell all.

Bewildering.

[massnative71]

Originally Posted by tribecavsbrowns

There's always an excuse. And nobody ever feels the need to quantify anything. It's just always, "the vaccines are working, they just have so much working against them.

Baloney.

If you are mandating a vaccine to stop the spread of a virus, I would like to see repeated instances where vaccine uptake has reduced the spread of the virus within a population. We don't have that with these vaccines. You know it and I know it.

Go back and read my edit with the recent link. If you have data that suggests the contrary, please cite it. This is City-"Data". Not City-"Feelings" or City-"Emotions/Knee Jerk Reactions", etc.

[lrfox]

Originally Posted by tribecavsbrowns

Again, the case against vaccine passports is that there is no case for them. The fact that they bear some resemblance to the beginning stages of fascist regimes is additive for the case against them. Saying that because people are bringing up uncomfortable historical parallels, that this cancels out or "drowns out" "good, reasonable" arguments against vaccine passports doesn't make sense.

Of course there is a case for them, and any reasonable person can understand that even if they disagree with the idea of passports. Vaccines are effective at reducing serious cases that result in hospitalization/death which are a burden on a healthcare system that's already struggling. We know this because we have a wealth of data on vaccine efficacy and we know what hospitalization figures look like. It's easily accessible to any person who cares to look and it's really hard to misunderstand.

The reasonable argument against passports is not that there's "no case" for them, it's that given the speed in which the virus is spreading, they won't be effective enough to significantly reduce the strain on the system, and that the cost (job losses, hurt business, etc.) is not worth the benefit. If you're unvaccinated, it's also quite understandable you'd be pissed that your livelihood is on the line. I can absolutely empathize with that and it's part of the reason I don't like the sweeping mandates. But the "historical parallels" are not uncomfortable because they're, frankly, silly. They're really lazy - a weak crutch for those who are incapable of making an actual argument. There are near infinite examples of mandates, requirements, laws, policies, and regulations throughout American history that any conspiracy nut could point to (and probably has) and compare to the "beginning stages of fascist regimes." Vaccine requirements are actually pretty benign in comparison to many of them (especially as there's plenty of precedent), particularly because there's a choice involved (either get the shot or don't) whereas those who are oppressed by fascism generally don't have any choice.

[tribecavsbrowns]

Originally Posted by massnative71

Go back and read my edit with the recent link. If you have data that suggests the contrary, please cite it. This is City-"Data". Not City-"Feelings" or City-"Emotions/Knee Jerk Reactions", etc.

I did. Great. How do you square that data with the fact that places that are vaxxed to the hilt (NYC, Mass., etc.) are seeing all-time case highs?

"Oh, it's just Omicron." "Oh, it's just testing." Really? This is what I mean about excuses.

But you might be able to explain how it all fits together. All I see is: more vaxxed, more Covid. Not being able to throw a rock without hitting someone who is double- or even triple-vaxxed and had Covid in the last month. I'm fairly sure your experience is the same as mine, but again, you might be able to explain how this all squares away.

[tribecavsbrowns]

Originally Posted by lrfox

Of course there is a case for them, and any reasonable person can understand that even if they disagree with the idea of passports. Vaccines are effective at reducing serious cases that result in hospitalization/death which are a burden on a healthcare system that's already struggling. We know this because we have a wealth of data on vaccine efficacy and we know what hospitalization figures look like. It's easily accessible to any person who cares to look and it's really hard to misunderstand.

The reasonable argument against passports is not that there's "no case" for them, it's that given the speed in which the virus is spreading, they won't be effective enough to significantly reduce the strain on the system, and that the cost (job losses, hurt business, etc.) is not worth the benefit. If you're unvaccinated, it's also quite understandable you'd be pissed that your livelihood is on the line. I can absolutely empathize with that and it's part of the reason I don't like the sweeping mandates. But the "historical parallels" are not uncomfortable because they're, frankly, silly. They're really lazy - a weak crutch for those who are incapable of making an actual argument. There are near infinite examples of mandates, requirements, laws, policies, and regulations through America that any conspiracy nut could point to (and probably has) and compare to the "beginning stages of fascist regimes." Vaccine requirements are actually pretty benign in comparison to many of them (especially as there's plenty of precedent), particularly because there's a choice involved (either get the shot or don't) whereas those who are oppressed by fascism generally don't have any choice.

What requirements are less benign that "take this shot or lose your job" (which you and I both know is not a choice in any meaningful sense)? I'm genuinely curious.

And your "reasonable" case against mandates isn't much different than mine, it's just less blunt. It still comes down to, "these mRNA vaccines don't meaningfully slow the spread of a constantly mutating coronavirus." That's all you need to reject any case for mandates. Case closed.

[Williepaws]

Originally Posted by GeoffD

No. We want vaccine passports so selfish unvaccinated people like you don’t crash the US health care system.

oh nonsense as usual with this poster. funny how I know vaccine protected people who are hospitalized with covid. And people who are hospitalized for other ailments, neg for covid. No problem with the health care system except their own incompetence. Ive gotten to the point that I dont care what Ma does anymore. I'll Take my tax payments which are substantial and move to another state. 40 yrs ago this was a great state. now its so tied up with affluence and arrogance that its not worth living here anymore. Ma. is losing more pop than gaining. Between ridiculous real estate prices, high cost of living, high taxes, an arrogant pop, more and more bldg, loss of land and farming, more and more rules and regulations etc etc etc. , not worth living here anymore. People should leave.