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Laws need to be enforced, sure...but we don't have a policy that deals with the current reality, has bipartisan support, and works with the countries of origin to stem the flow of migrants. That's also why the DACA question has not been resolved. Everything else is a band-aid. A candidate got elected in 2016 by managing to convince enough people that a border wall equated to a "policy".
You have to stop the cut artery from bleeding before you mop the blood off the floor.
The border wall and electronics were the first step to resolving the open border. The security of a border wall was the fist step required before a comprehensive immigration policy could be discussed.
Dems refused Trump's daca offer even after he allowed more illegals to be covered than dems asked for.
Bet you believe the border is closed.
Look at the numbers under trump and you defend Biden's abandoned border policy, its disease distribution across the country, drugs and financing the global drug cartels?????????
Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
41,936 posts, read 37,101,999 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by htfdcolt
Respectfully disagree--a wall is not a policy and does nothing to address the roots of the problem. But it was good for getting people to contribute $$ to Steve Bannon's yacht fund. The "Remain in Mexico" policy was only discontinued in late Aug, whereas the numbers have been going up for years with that policy in place.
All it does (beyond environmental damage) is increase profits for organized crime and increase danger to those trying to get here.
With all these "agreements" and "policies" how about some sanity? Look to ourselves and stop contributing to the conditions forcing those people to flee their homes.
No, that's way too difficult. Build a useless wall, instead. "Build the wall, build the wall, wooo".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_n_Tenn
If walls don't work and they don't address the root of the problem... then why do detention facilities have walls?
You think detention facilities address the root of the problems? LOL.
And those fences do little to nothing if they aren't staffed by people non stop, 24/7/365, which is absolutely impossible across a larger border. A fence without non stop staffing can be gone over, under, or around, which what do you know... It's a really stupid analogy. You could put a triple 12' barbed wire covered triple wall the entire span of 2000 miles, have a person armed every 50' non stop, 24/7/365 and you'd just make more and more money for cartels and have more and more people die. (In addition the environmental damage).
If you want to get to the root of the problem, look at why people are leaving, look to our role in it, address that first.
Last edited by timberline742; 10-13-2022 at 06:51 AM..
All it does (beyond environmental damage) is increase profits for organized crime and increase danger to those trying to get here.
With all these "agreements" and "policies" how about some sanity? Look to ourselves and stop contributing to the conditions forcing those people to flee their homes.
No, that's way too difficult. Build a useless wall, instead. "Build the wall, build the wall, wooo".
You think detention facilities address the root of the problems? LOL.
And those fences do little to nothing if they aren't staffed by people non stop, 24/7/365, which is absolutely impossible across a larger border. A fence without non stop staffing can be gone over, under, or around, which what do you know... It's a really stupid analogy. You could put a triple 12' barbed wire covered triple wall the entire span of 2000 miles, have a person armed every 50' non stop, 24/7/365 and you'd just make more and more money for cartels and have more and more people die. (In addition the environmental damage).
If you want to get to the root of the problem, look at why people are leaving, look to our role in it, address that first.
No detention centers and walls do not address the root of the problem... I guess the point escapes you. That was my point. However walls protect by controlling what can not be prevented. Dams do that, levees do that too, nuclear containment does that, fences do that... and none of them address the root cause.
Look at it like this... when storm loom in the distance, as they all do, you mitigate the exposure. Board up windows, have a strong roof, doors reinforced. Point is, the storm is inevitable, but how well you prepare for that threat is very evident.
Sometime people need to experience a storm to feel it's affect in order to KNOW the reality. Once they do, their perspective is different, even life changing for some with a brain. It's the red pill. Your welcome Martha's Vineyard.
Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
41,936 posts, read 37,101,999 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_n_Tenn
No detention centers and walls do not address the root of the problem... I guess the point escapes you. That was my point. However walls protect by controlling what can not be prevented. Dams do that, levees do that too, nuclear containment does that, fences do that... and none of them address the root cause.
Look at it like this... when storm loom in the distance, as they all do, you mitigate the exposure. Board up windows, have a strong roof, doors reinforced. Point is, the storm is inevitable, but how well you prepare for that threat is very evident.
Sometime people need to experience a storm to feel it's affect in order to KNOW the reality. Once they do, their perspective is different, even life changing for some with a brain. It's the red pill. Your welcome Martha's Vineyard.
The point the seems to escape you is that this isn't a situation that cannot be prevented. It's one we instigate and fuel in a myriad of ways, from our drug craze coupled with horrific drug policies, to our foreign policy and CIA involvement in foreign nations, to our purposefully difficult legal immigration policies.
Just like the increasing strength of hurricanes is one we've instigated, and can help prevent. But we choose not to.
Heck, for that matter, our institutionalizing huge swaths of the population in "detention centers" unlike any other western nation is also something that can be prevented. We choose not to.
We LOVE to say, well, we can't prevent something and we just have to deal with it, because we don't have the actual will to change and prevent the preventable.
The only lesson that was given to MV, in case they didn't know already, is that DeSantis is a truly horrific person with zero moral values and a complete disregard for human life.
The point the seems to escape you is that this isn't a situation that cannot be prevented. It's one we instigate and fuel in a myriad of ways, from our drug craze coupled with horrific drug policies, to our foreign policy and CIA involvement in foreign nations, to our purposefully difficult legal immigration policies.
Just like the increasing strength of hurricanes is one we've instigated, and can help prevent. But we choose not to.
Heck, for that matter, our institutionalizing huge swaths of the population in "detention centers" unlike any other western nation is also something that can be prevented. We choose not to.
We LOVE to say, well, we can't prevent something and we just have to deal with it, because we don't have the actual will to change and prevent the preventable.
The only lesson that was given to MV, in case they didn't know already, is that DeSantis is a truly horrific person with zero moral values and a complete disregard for human life.
But many of the same people you directly or indirectly defend here all the time are in the crowd who are enabling those issues you cite in paragraph 1. Blaming Desantis and only Republicans is itellectually dishonest. The Dems are knee-deep in conflict around the world, intelligence agency involvement, and seriously questionable ties to big multi national business. The illegal migration isn't encouraged because people care about migrants, it's encouraged to favor those corporations, divide the American people, increase globalization, disrupt the international order and undermine the US. The evidence is abundant and out there for those who wish to see it, but one needs to read books, speak with people with relevant ground level experience, and look beyond CNN. As for hurricanes, the jury is still out on whether that's preventable, at all. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-24268-5 I'd also suggest reading physicist Steve Koomin's book Unsettled. He's no fringe thinker. Those not asking questions are part of the problem not the solution. That said, some people have hidden agendas that require no questions being asked.
Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
41,936 posts, read 37,101,999 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bostongymjunkie
But many of the same people you directly or indirectly defend here all the time are in the crowd who are enabling those issues you cite in paragraph 1. Blaming Desantis and only Republicans is itellectually dishonest. The Dems are knee-deep in conflict around the world, intelligence agency involvement, and seriously questionable ties to big multi national business. The illegal migration isn't encouraged because people care about migrants, it's encouraged to favor those corporations, divide the American people, increase globalization, disrupt the international order and undermine the US. The evidence is abundant and out there for those who wish to see it, but one needs to read books, speak with people with relevant ground level experience, and look beyond CNN. As for hurricanes, the jury is still out on whether that's preventable, at all. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-24268-5 I'd also suggest reading physicist Steve Koomin's book Unsettled. He's no fringe thinker. Those not asking questions are part of the problem not the solution. That said, some people have hidden agendas that require no questions being asked.
Of course the Dems have blame, they've become a firmly center right neoliberal party. We have no diversity in candidates for the most part, except for a couple at the National level, every politician is firmly right of center on the Western political gradient. They've used the CIA to destabilize Central and South American nations, often for the benefit of big business, for generations. I don't see many dems shipping people here legally around like cattle. And of course big business loves undocumented immigrants (though that has nothing to do with what this thread is about) as they're large supplies of cheap labor, I've mentioned that several times in this thread.
Koomin isn't a climate scientist, he is a physicist. I'd go to him for opinions on climate as quickly as I would on vaccines. Asking questions is great. Qualified people asking questions. When you get otherwise very intelligent people asking questions well outside their field, they often ask the wrong questions and/or are unable to accurately critique and examine the responses. They also often promote fringe opinions and give them equal weight. I'm not saying this of Koomin in particular, as I've not read the book, but there is no reason to. Read a book from climate scientists for information on climate. I'd say the same across the political spectrum, for example, Noam Chomsky. Go to him for information on linguistics, not foreign policy.
Of course the Dems have blame, they've become a firmly center right neoliberal party. We have no diversity in candidates for the most part, except for a couple at the National level, every politician is firmly right of center on the Western political gradient. They've used the CIA to destabilize Central and South American nations, often for the benefit of big business, for generations. I don't see many dems shipping people here legally around like cattle. And of course big business loves undocumented immigrants (though that has nothing to do with what this thread is about) as they're large supplies of cheap labor, I've mentioned that several times in this thread.
Koomin isn't a climate scientist, he is a physicist. I'd go to him for opinions on climate as quickly as I would on vaccines. Asking questions is great. Qualified people asking questions. When you get otherwise very intelligent people asking questions well outside their field, they often ask the wrong questions and/or are unable to accurately critique and examine the responses. They also often promote fringe opinions and give them equal weight. I'm not saying this of Koomin in particular, as I've not read the book, but there is no reason to. Read a book from climate scientists for information on climate. I'd say the same across the political spectrum, for example, Noam Chomsky. Go to him for information on linguistics, not foreign policy.
LOL. I refer back to my first sentence in P1 above. And if you're not interested in what a respected CalTech and MIT trained physicist with decades of experience in government including the NSF, Energy Department, and Jason Group has to say about climate change well, like I said, some people don't want to ask questions. "Cimate scientist" isn't a real thing BTW, it's a finite/contrived collection of scientists from a variety of disciplines including physics who have focused solely/primarily on climate during their career. That doesn't mean they are the only people whose learned views should ever be heard or considered on the topic. Using your logic, nobody should listen to Fauci on any public health topics because he's not a public health professional.
The evidence is staring you in the face that this ain't happening. DACA folks would be first in line for "rule change" and they've been waiting for how long now? That's my point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by timberline742
All it does (beyond environmental damage) is increase profits for organized crime and increase danger to those trying to get here.
With all these "agreements" and "policies" how about some sanity? Look to ourselves and stop contributing to the conditions forcing those people to flee their homes.
No, that's way too difficult. Build a useless wall, instead. "Build the wall, build the wall, wooo".
You think detention facilities address the root of the problems? LOL.
And those fences do little to nothing if they aren't staffed by people non stop, 24/7/365, which is absolutely impossible across a larger border. A fence without non stop staffing can be gone over, under, or around, which what do you know... It's a really stupid analogy. You could put a triple 12' barbed wire covered triple wall the entire span of 2000 miles, have a person armed every 50' non stop, 24/7/365 and you'd just make more and more money for cartels and have more and more people die. (In addition the environmental damage).
If you want to get to the root of the problem, look at why people are leaving, look to our role in it, address that first.
That's an interesting take amigo, but let's see...
You need to pay your coyote thousands of dollars and walk tens or even hundreds of miles in the desert so you can get to a spot where you can sneak in undetected, all while avoiding drones and border patrol agents actively looking for you so they can grab you and boot you back into Mexico - how many of you show up?
You need to show up at the nearest border crossing, mumble "asylum jefe, asylum" and in you go, no need for coyotes or a long trek across the desert, you'll even get transportation to a city where you'll be given all sorts of goodies paid for by taxpayer dinero - how many of you show up?
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