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As to your assumption about me being naive to human nature and evil - well, that's a bit of a chuckle coming from someone who's adult life experience has been limited to dealing with crime and unregulated emotions and emergency response. Your adult life experience is an impressive challenge to navigate - but not a bit well rounded, sir. No offense. A well rounded perspective is called for when making broad generalizations. Your view is dark and narrow by nature.
In my time overseas and under fire I am confident I experienced every aspect of the evils to be found in human nature. I was not peripheral to the action. It was intense, sustained, and repetitive. This is not to diminish the danger and endurance of years on the job on city streets. But my point is I have been fully immersed in the widest range of heroism, cowardice, malice, support, betrayal, committment, suffering, criminality, and yes, good luck as well.
But beyond those years, I have lived fully in the day to day world outside of war and crime and mental illness and disaster. I've got a lot of years on you, sir. My guess is at least 30. I've been a blue-collar, mostly self-employed, everyday Joe for a full second career out of service. Now retired from all. And, other than my years overseas, I fully integrated with everyday society. No closed circle of culture such as nearly all LEO's live within.
Guns suck. Human nature is as ugly and out of control as it can sometimes also be beautiful. The two together, guns and human nature, are a recipe for tragedy.
You came into an old thread to defend the concept of CCW as socially beneficial. You magnified the OP story - which didn't say anything about: 300 lbs, fat, or broken bottle attacks. The story simply portrayed a punk ass verbal threat (made more dramatic by a bottle in hand). This verbal exchange occurred in the state with the least gun violence in the nation. But to you it represents a prime example of the value of CCW. I represent that the best course of action was the one [successfully] enacted by the story's OP: he walked away. Diffused. No one got shot ... or even punched.
You may well retire to Hawaii ... and love it and stick with your move. Aloha. But you will never "fit in" with your retired NY cop, 2nd Amendment, CCW-loving, chutzpa. IMHO. You don't need to "fit in", of course. Lots who move to Hawaii never do. You also won't need to CCW in Hawaii.
But, sincerely, best of wishes and luck finishing your career years. Worst job in the world.
I appreciate the weight of your life experience, but it doesn't make you right in regards to conceal carry. The probability of ever having to use your firearm is extremely thin, but the purpose is when you do have to use it you are prepared for a high risk event.
So we agree human nature is ugly and for the benefit of this debate guns have nothing to do with human nature, just as much as say a box truck running into a crowd of people has nothing to do with human nature. Like a box truck, a gun doesn't feel, it doesn't think, it doesn't do anything if left alone. These are only tools and they only do something when operated by an individual. We don't have a gun problem, we have a sin problem. We sadly live in a fallen and broken world where there is evil all around us ready to pounce. Does this view make my world narrow and dark? I don't think so, it's just the reality of a fallen world. That doesn't mean there isn't love, compassion, laughter, empathy, sympathy, benevolence, grace, mercy, friendship, goodness... Those are things we all need to hold dear to our hearts and cherish and we both agree there is also beauty in this world. Sadly, sin nature and guns are a reality in the world we live and if someone wants to murder another, they don't need a gun to do it.
Would I not fit in Hawaii with those beliefs? Why wouldn't I? What does having those beliefs have to do with fitting in? I have my political viewpoints and other people have their political viewpoints. We can either agree or disagree. People can believe in whatever they want and I really could care less. It's not my place to judge anyone for what they believe just as it is not their place to judge me for what I believe. Some of the best friends and family I have disagree on many things and has no bearing on our relationships. There is more to this world than getting hung up on trivial stuff.
I have my reasons for wanting to move there and see if it is for us. The strict gun laws is really not that big of deal to me; we were just having a debate in general about the right to bear arms.
There are a lot worse jobs out there. I am thankful for my job and see it as a blessing. It has been an up and down career, but I have had the opportunity to do a lot of good.
Yes, you are. And the way you are "rationalizing" using "stats, data, and facts" is called research by confirmation bias.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyfinestbxtf
Without a doubt the LE culture is a culture of its own and we do sometimes see life through that lens, but I do actually have a life outside that realm. Most of my social encounters are outside LE and I prefer it that way--work stays at work and home stays at home. For many officers the two realities of life blur together to the point when one doesn't recognize one from the other. My capabilities of rational and logical thought is still entact. Your psychobabble is surely entertaining, but not even close.
Yes, the nature of the LE culture is well known. "Sometimes see life through that lens"? Heh. Boy howdy, yep ... and not "sometimes". It's an inescapable reality that takes years to unravel - if ever. And you are still immersed through your service. If you truly indulge in non-LE culture predominantly, as you claim, hats off to you. I have been and remain very close friends with several LEO's who manage that balance. And yet, they will admit that doing so doesn't immunize them from the LE lens ... any more than my return from combat tours let me relax back in stateside comforts until considerable time - we're talking years and years - passed with deliberate mindfulness to the challenge. And, even then, much remains, even after 50 years home. You may be on the right track - but you are hardly free, yet.
You keep referring to yourself as a logician, too. Curious. Because logic is essentially a science. And nothing you are writing is particularly expressed in that artful science. You are being neither particularly logical or illogical. You may be conflating what you view as "common sense" as logic. They are not the same thing. Common sense is a very subjective interpretation. Logic is mathematical in its precision. Would you care to cite a logical progession you have expressed so far? For example, you wrote:
Quote:
Logic came into the discussion because fat ass who broke a bottle wasn't using any logic and was prepared to use that bottle as a weapon. Singing Kumbaya doesn't always resolve the issue with the irrational or those who have a tendency to perpetuate violence. Most times violence has to be met with violence or superior fire power, that's logical.
Of course there's no element of logical analysis in any of that. You find your belief "sensible" and conflate that with "logic." It's not logic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyfinestbxtf
Your psychobabble is surely entertaining, but not even close.
"Psychobabble"? You mean like:
Quote:
The gun doesn't fire on its own, it needs a person to pull the trigger
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A 300lb fat guy with a broken bottle doesn't stand a chance against a 100lb girl with a Glock. How in an instance a Glock can even up a fight. ... It's better to be prepared for a low probability high risk situation than not. ... You have the Constitutional right to defend yourself against a 300lb fat ass with a broken bottle.
(note: there was no "300lb fat guy with a broken bottle" ... all of those defining characteristics were add-on's made by readers after the original description ... an example of myth creation cousin to eyewitness illusion, based on fear elements)
Quote:
The moment fat ass saw the firearm his attitude would have been realigned and that couple would have never been threatened or in fear of serious physical injury or death.
Interesting speculation based on, well, nothing?
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That's like telling the gazelle to cut off its horns so the cheetah won't attack it. You may be willing to take that risk with the wolf, I rather be the sheepdog than the sheep.
Speaking of pure "babble".
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It as though you are naive to the existence of evil.
nah, you don't see through LE cultural lens!
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you seem very naive on human nature.
Again ...
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insulting someone to win the argument is the last refuge of an idiot.
Well, YOU perceived an intentional insult. Another would perceive a simple observation. And, anyway, your conclusion is both an erronous fallacy - and an insult itself, of course.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyfinestbxtf
It's not a good idea to have non-law abiding citizens running around armed. Even in gun friendly states where it is easy for a law abiding citizen to acquire a conceal carry permit I do not see all kinds of armed people running around. Now, do the stats suggest we aren't competent nor safe to do so? I don't see the facts to back up such a claim. Accidental discharges and unintentional deaths make up a small fraction of gun related deaths. The vast majority of gun related deaths is attributed to suicide and urban area gang violence. When you look at all the deaths in whole, gun related deaths accounts for less than 2%.
I'm not sure what you mean that people can't be trusted to act wisely and competently under perceived mortal pressures? I get the fact that mistakes are made and even we as police officers make mistakes, but are there enough mistakes made that the right to carry and conceal be taken away?
Right. Of course you don't see the facts to back up the general public's incompetence with firearms. As I said, it's called "confirmation bias". And, btw, all those suicides and accidents? Mostly all "law abiding citizens." You say "guns aren't dangerous, people with guns are dangerous." There is no issue without people associated with guns - therefore (speaking of logic): there is no difference.
And right, "people can't be trusted to act wisely and competently under perceived mortal pressures." Absolutely correct. Read on for elucidation:
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That's what researchers at University of Notre Dame have concluded after conducting a study to determine whether the simple act of wielding a gun alters the way people see the world. Previous studies have already suggested that visual perception can be highly subjective, depending on your attributes. For instance, it's been shown that people with broader shoulders tend to perceive doorways to be narrower, and softball players with higher batting averages perceive the ball to be bigger. However, can just picking up a gun suddenly make the world appear more violent?
To find out, the researchers subjected volunteers to a series of five experiments in which they were shown multiple images of people on a computer screen and determined whether the person was holding a gun or a neutral object such as a soda can or cell phone. Subjects did this while holding either a toy gun or a neutral object such as a foam ball.
The researchers varied the situation in each experiment — such as having the people in the images sometimes wear ski masks, changing the race of the person in the image or changing the reaction subjects were to have when they judged the person in the image to hold a gun. Regardless of the situation, the study showed that responding with a gun created a bias in which observers reported a gun being present more often than they did responding with a ball. Thus, by virtue of affording the subject the opportunity to use a gun, he or she was more likely to classify objects in a scene as a gun and, as a result, to engage in threat-induced behavior, such as raising a firearm to shoot.
And finally
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyfinestbxtf
I get the fact that mistakes are made and even we as police officers make mistakes, but are there enough mistakes made that the right to carry and conceal be taken away?
You have numerous times inserted assertions not made. I haven't been arguing in favor of eliminating Second Amendment rights to carry guns. I have been pointing out that it's ignorant to suggest we are safer doing so. And particularly with regard to advocating such in Hawaii where the absence of gun culture and CCW in particular appears so clearly correlated to the lowest rate of gun violence in the nation.
You want to retire in Hawaii? Go for it! You can leave your firearms in NY and be just fine.
I appreciate the weight of your life experience, but it doesn't make you right in regards to conceal carry. The probability of ever having to use your firearm is extremely thin, but the purpose is when you do have to use it you are prepared for a high risk event.
So we agree human nature is ugly and for the benefit of this debate guns have nothing to do with human nature, just as much as say a box truck running into a crowd of people has nothing to do with human nature. Like a box truck, a gun doesn't feel, it doesn't think, it doesn't do anything if left alone. These are only tools and they only do something when operated by an individual. We don't have a gun problem, we have a sin problem. We sadly live in a fallen and broken world where there is evil all around us ready to pounce. Does this view make my world narrow and dark? I don't think so, it's just the reality of a fallen world. That doesn't mean there isn't love, compassion, laughter, empathy, sympathy, benevolence, grace, mercy, friendship, goodness... Those are things we all need to hold dear to our hearts and cherish and we both agree there is also beauty in this world. Sadly, sin nature and guns are a reality in the world we live and if someone wants to murder another, they don't need a gun to do it.
Would I not fit in Hawaii with those beliefs? Why wouldn't I? What does having those beliefs have to do with fitting in? I have my political viewpoints and other people have their political viewpoints. We can either agree or disagree. People can believe in whatever they want and I really could care less. It's not my place to judge anyone for what they believe just as it is not their place to judge me for what I believe. Some of the best friends and family I have disagree on many things and has no bearing on our relationships. There is more to this world than getting hung up on trivial stuff.
I have my reasons for wanting to move there and see if it is for us. The strict gun laws is really not that big of deal to me; we were just having a debate in general about the right to bear arms.
There are a lot worse jobs out there. I am thankful for my job and see it as a blessing. It has been an up and down career, but I have had the opportunity to do a lot of good.
I enjoy and agree with the spirit of this post very much in spite of our differences of opinion on firearms. Atheist that I am, your reference to "sin" has me wondering ... but I understand your sincerity ... and appreciate it.
Nice to read that you take your job as a blessing. One of my LEO buddies was also able to shoulder the job unusually well. He had been in the insurance business and also a car salesman (among several other careers) until age 42. He stayed in great shape (we met in mutual athletic pusuits) and was able to jog right thru the academy with the youngsters. His unique good nature afforded him 20 years on the force ... with a smile. Remarkable.
"Fitting in." Um. Hawaii is fairly "live and let live". It is also a seriously small world. Pretty liberal to boot. Very, actually. I wish you well and much aloha.
Location: not sure, but there's a hell of a lot of water around here!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyfinestbxtf
Would I not fit in Hawaii with those beliefs? Why wouldn't I?
So, lets say that hypothetically you do retire to Hawaii, specifically Maui, and you finally get your permit to conceal carry. You find a lovely house to rent/buy in South Maui, right across from Keawakapu Beach. You're all settled in, and go for long walks on Keawakapu around sunset, with your lovely wife, every evening. Life is about as good as it gets. For these perfect evening sunset strolls, you're not wearing any footwear, after all, that's what a sandy beach is all about. It's warm out, because you're 20 degrees north of the equator, so you're not wearing a jacket, just a tank top and some nicely broken in board shorts, very comfy. Just where does the Glock go???? Can't fit it into a shoulder holster with the tank top on, hell, that's not going to fool anybody.. Ankle holster, don't think so, especially if you like to walk on the waters edge, and sand isn't going to do the mechanism any good, so we can rule out an ankle holster. BUT, what if that 300 pound fat guy is getting ready to bust an Okolehao bottle and let some innocent bystander have it??? What if he's lurking in the bushes up by the Mana Kai, or in front of the old Outrigger, now Sarrentos?? Where do you stash that Glock???
And what happens if it discharges accidentally? Up there?
And just imagine what it would do to your head, which is lodged in the same vicinity.................
Okolemaluna
Maui, it's a dark and dreary, ever lurking evil, kind of place
Yes, you are. And the way you are "rationalizing" using "stats, data, and facts" is called research by confirmation bias.
I try not to be bias in the research that I do and will go where the evidence leads me whether I like it our not.
Quote:
Yes, the nature of the LE culture is well known. "Sometimes see life through that lens"? Heh. Boy howdy, yep ... and not "sometimes". It's an inescapable reality that takes years to unravel - if ever. And you are still immersed through your service. If you truly indulge in non-LE culture predominantly, as you claim, hats off to you. I have been and remain very close friends with several LEO's who manage that balance. And yet, they will admit that doing so doesn't immunize them from the LE lens ... any more than my return from combat tours let me relax back in stateside comforts until considerable time - we're talking years and years - passed with deliberate mindfulness to the challenge. And, even then, much remains, even after 50 years home. You may be on the right track - but you are hardly free, yet.
There will be without a doubt a normalization period upon retirement. Some take longer than others to normalize. There are actually books written about this. That is one of the reasons why I want to move to Hawaii, to help me cope with the normalization process. I know a few guys who retired out there from my department and they adjusted very well. Living there helped them with the institutionalization of LE. My wife actually asked if I would be interested in joining the police department in Hawaii. I told her absolutely not. I don't believe I allowed myself to be institutionalized, but I'm sure there are things that are in my head that I'm not even aware are there. Most guys say that stuff doesn't really surface until you are retired.
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You keep referring to yourself as a logician, too. Curious. Because logic is essentially a science. And nothing you are writing is particularly expressed in that artful science. You are being neither particularly logical or illogical. You may be conflating what you view as "common sense" as logic. They are not the same thing. Common sense is a very subjective interpretation. Logic is mathematical in its precision. Would you care to cite a logical progession you have expressed so far? For example, you wrote:
Of course there's no element of logical analysis in any of that. You find your belief "sensible" and conflate that with "logic." It's not logic.
What is science? Science is observable, repeatable, and testable. These are the hallmarks of the scientific method. We can take facts, data, and stats and make a logical conclusion. The point I'm making is guns are not the issue, but rather people are. It is a fact if someone want to inflict physical harm or murder someone, they don't need a gun to complete their task. More gun laws are not going to prevent people or change their behavior from being homicidal, like abolishing abortion will not prevent women from having an abortion. It's also a fact criminals are opportunists and will follow the path of least resistance. If a criminal has an easy mark, they are going to act on it.
Quote:
"Psychobabble"? You mean like:
(note: there was no "300lb fat guy with a broken bottle" ... all of those defining characteristics were add-on's made by readers after the original description ... an example of myth creation cousin to eyewitness illusion, based on fear elements)
I understand this was not part of the OP and I can't recall if this was someone's actual experience, but is this scenario myth and illusion? Can a situation like that happen anywhere at any time? Point is a 100lb girl up against a 300lb male is no match for the male and is an unfair fight. A 100lb girl who is armed, the fight has instantly become even.
Quote:
Interesting speculation based on, well, nothing?
Speaking of pure "babble".
nah, you don't see through LE cultural lens!
Again ...
Well, YOU perceived an intentional insult. Another would perceive a simple observation. And, anyway, your conclusion is both an erronous fallacy - and an insult itself, of course.
You can call someone fat or ugly and that would be an observation, but the person on the receiving end would perceive that as an insult.
Quote:
Right. Of course you don't see the facts to back up the general public's incompetence with firearms. As I said, it's called "confirmation bias". And, btw, all those suicides and accidents? Mostly all "law abiding citizens." You say "guns aren't dangerous, people with guns are dangerous." There is no issue without people associated with guns - therefore (speaking of logic): there is no difference.
Again, someone doesn't need a gun to commit suicide. There are a million others ways for someone to take their life. I'm not trying to be insensitive, but when you take out suicide and gang violence, gun related deaths is minimal. Also, there is no evidence that law abiding armed citizens are systematically unsafe and incompetent with their firearms. I'm more in fear driving on the road with all kinds of people texting and not paying any attention to the road. Distracted driving is a bigger threat to the public than law abiding armed citizens.
I stand by that statement, guns aren't dangerous in the right hands. Criminals with guns are dangerous. People who don't respect the gun are dangerous (mostly to themselves and those in their vicinity). There is no issue without people associated with anything that has the potential to cause serious harm or kill someone. We go by that logic, then there are many things that could potentially be harmful to someone that should make headline news.
Quote:
And right, "people can't be trusted to act wisely and competently under perceived mortal pressures." Absolutely correct. Read on for elucidation:
Actually firing a weapon and conducting an exercise or experiment are two different things. What are the stats of someone perceiving an attack when in fact it wasn't an attack and that someone shot the percieved attacker?
Quote:
And finally
You have numerous times inserted assertions not made. I haven't been arguing in favor of eliminating Second Amendment rights to carry guns. I have been pointing out that it's ignorant to suggest we are safer doing so. And particularly with regard to advocating such in Hawaii where the absence of gun culture and CCW in particular appears so clearly correlated to the lowest rate of gun violence in the nation.
Maybe we are, maybe we aren't, but the person with a firearm on the receiving end of an attack is safer. Like I stated earlier, the purpose of carrying a firearm is to be prepared for a low probability high risk event.
I don't really care how Hawaii views firearms. If the people don't want firearms and that is how they vote, I respect their decision. I'm not going to move to Hawaii and try to change anyone's mind. Violent crime is nearly nonexistent and that is a good way of life. Obviously if there is no firearms or limited firearms in Hawaii gun violence will be low, but would CCW raise gun violence in Hawaii minus suicides and AD? Also, as I understand it, there is a lot of hunting in Hawaii, especially on Maui for axis deer. Are there a lot of hunting rifles in Hawaii?
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You want to retire in Hawaii? Go for it! You can leave your firearms in NY and be just fine.
[/quote]
I'm sure I could leave my firearm and I will be fine, but it is mine and I'm going to bring it. Like I said before, other than being out on patrol, my firearm mostly stays in my locker at work. So if my firearm is never with me off duty, it will most likely remain in a safe when living in Hawaii.
I enjoy and agree with the spirit of this post very much in spite of our differences of opinion on firearms. Atheist that I am, your reference to "sin" has me wondering ... but I understand your sincerity ... and appreciate it.
Nice to read that you take your job as a blessing. One of my LEO buddies was also able to shoulder the job unusually well. He had been in the insurance business and also a car salesman (among several other careers) until age 42. He stayed in great shape (we met in mutual athletic pusuits) and was able to jog right thru the academy with the youngsters. His unique good nature afforded him 20 years on the force ... with a smile. Remarkable.
"Fitting in." Um. Hawaii is fairly "live and let live". It is also a seriously small world. Pretty liberal to boot. Very, actually. I wish you well and much aloha.
That's all it is, just a difference of opinions while enjoying a free exchange of ideas. That's what it is about. "Sin or sin nature" is a biblical thing. Basically what sin is is "the propensity to F things up." As a Christian we believe all have sin in us. No matter how hard we try not to sin, we still continue to F up.
That is good for your buddy and it probably helped him coming on the job more mature. I think becoming a cop at 20 or 21 is way to young and a person should experience life a little bit before joining. I came on at 25, still young, but had some life experience. And thats it, you just have to take it in stride and keep a good nature about yourself and you will skate right through it all. There will be habits you won't ever be able to let go of, but most are minimal. Like where you sit in a restaurant, head kinda on a swivel, being able to observe every traffic infraction while driving, being able to point out anomalies, a good read on people.
Yeah, Hawaii is pretty blue, but it can't be any worse than NYC. I don't care what people do in their bedrooms, I don't care what gender people think they are, I don't care if people smoke pot or smoke meth. I respect what other people believe whether I disagree with it or not. It is not my place to judge anyone.
So, lets say that hypothetically you do retire to Hawaii, specifically Maui, and you finally get your permit to conceal carry. You find a lovely house to rent/buy in South Maui, right across from Keawakapu Beach. You're all settled in, and go for long walks on Keawakapu around sunset, with your lovely wife, every evening. Life is about as good as it gets. For these perfect evening sunset strolls, you're not wearing any footwear, after all, that's what a sandy beach is all about. It's warm out, because you're 20 degrees north of the equator, so you're not wearing a jacket, just a tank top and some nicely broken in board shorts, very comfy. Just where does the Glock go???? Can't fit it into a shoulder holster with the tank top on, hell, that's not going to fool anybody.. Ankle holster, don't think so, especially if you like to walk on the waters edge, and sand isn't going to do the mechanism any good, so we can rule out an ankle holster. BUT, what if that 300 pound fat guy is getting ready to bust an Okolehao bottle and let some innocent bystander have it??? What if he's lurking in the bushes up by the Mana Kai, or in front of the old Outrigger, now Sarrentos?? Where do you stash that Glock???
And what happens if it discharges accidentally? Up there?
And just imagine what it would do to your head, which is lodged in the same vicinity.................
Okolemaluna
Maui, it's a dark and dreary, ever lurking evil, kind of place
Poina'ole, ho'aka'aka
You don't bring your firearm anywhere unless you can properly and safely secure it.
My only point with the 300lb guy armed with a bottle is the person the 300lb guy is threatening is on even ground with the attacker if also armed.
You failed to read, and comprehend, the last line of my post, which is understandable.
Poina'ole- don't forget
ho'aka'aka-laugh
It's gotten me through some tough times, even over here.
Guess it went over my head. But yeah, this life is a blessing and finite and shouldn't be taken for granted. No sense getting caught up with the small stuff
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