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OK, I understand your distinction. The only issue I see is that all polls say that more than 50% of people cannot see this distinction ... YET.
I believe the wounds are still too fresh, the memories not forgotten. the LINK between the two has been ingrained on westerners by the past 20 years of attacks, all supposedly IN THE NAME OF ISLAM, for ALLAH.
I'm not up on my history ... how many years did it take, after Pearl Harbor, before the concentration camps were closed? Maybe for the average human being, it takes more than 9 years to "heal"?
Since there has been such a popular uproar over the location of this mosque, I feel those emotions should be taken into consideration by the individuals who proposed it. Especially in the light of the fact that they claim this facility will work to bridge a gap between the west and Islam. How are they going to bridge the gap if they insist on widening it by forcing the issue on this location? It is this stubborn insistance by them that is making a lot of us wary of their real agenda, here.
i think that them building a community center in downtown NYC does help bridge the gap. retracting into dark corners where no one can see them because people are "afraid" that Islam is responsible for the attacks does not help bridge the gap, it widens it.
as you said about the pearl harbor and the concentration camps - maybe the japanese americans should have all just left until americans "healed" (i.e., got over their fear of japanese americans because they believed they were all spies for japan). i don't think that's right personally, and i don't think muslim-americans should have to all retract into dark corners and out of public eye until americans get over their ignorance and stop fearing muslims.
that's not what our country was founded on. for all the debate on what the interpretation of the constitution framers intended, this seems to be a pretty clearcut issue - they intended that all men (and women) be treated equal. we're not treating muslim-americans equally right now, just as we've had our faults in the past due to ignorance and fear that resulted in that ignorance.
Some interesting reading here, Captain (and a LOT of it) ... especially if you click on the links to the passages.
bradykp, have you taken a look? Again, look at the articles linked to the summary passages. I would be very interested in what your "take" is regarding these texts. Are these, in your opinion, the extremist views? If so, do you have links to the ones that are not extremist?
there's plenty of discussion around the quotes and their meanings. i don't really think it's healthy to get into the debate. there's a billion muslims in the world. you're talking about a couple thousand, maybe more, that follow the interpretations being discussed (jihad - convert or die). all the others do not. christianity has very similar quotes if you look in the bible (including the old testement, so that would also include judaism). yet islam is the only religion that gets the attention by the conspiracy theorists.
sorry, it's just not worth arguing over. attend any of the number of public speaking engagements discussing this topic at a local college/university and form your opinion. if you want to buy into the idea that islam is a "convert or die" religion, so be it. but then try and reconcile that with the fact that a very very large number of muslims are living in the world practicing their faith peacefully. Poster above claims that means they aren't true muslims. I'm not arguing with that logic as it will get me nowhere.
Dude,have you taken a look at The Book of Revelations in The New Testament? All religious text, if taken literally, can have extremist interpretation. This is not unique to Islam. Once again this debate is SOOOOO old. Hopefully one day we'll evolve as species, adopting more Utopian lifestyle of tolerance. But until then please continue to debate whether every Muslim on the planet secretly wants to kill Americans( It sound so ridiculous that I have trouble even typing it sarcastically).
i can't rep you. have to spread the love first. but this deserves a rep.
Just to be clear, here is what was preached about tolerance from The Prophet Muhammad and The Quran.
From the Quran:
“To you be your religion, to me be mine.”
From the Prophet Muhammad:
“Beware! Whoever is cruel and hard on a non-Muslim minority, or curtails their rights, or burdens them with more than they can bear, or takes anything from them against their free will; I (Prophet Muhammad) will complain against the person on the Day of Judgment.”
“This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them. Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by God! I hold out against anything that displeases them. No compulsion is to be on them. Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries. No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims’ houses. Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God’s covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate. No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight. The Muslims are to fight for them. If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray. Their churches are declared to be protected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants. No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world).”
now, why do you have to go and make stuff up that doesn't jive with the conspiracy theory?
cmon! everyone knows muhammad was drunk when he said that and took it back after he sobered up!
And I've noticed a different pattern, one that makes #1 WTC look like an extended middle finger, amongst the other smaller structures.
All the same, each buidling is a different design ... created by a different architect. It just looks like a bunch of buildings, to me, and it completely loses the magnificence of the towers I worked for, for 25 years.
Maybe once it's complete, I'll change my mind. But gladly, I will never work in those buildings again. They have a short life expectancy, especially with all the news agencies continuing to dub the big one "Freedom Tower" (against the PA's wishes).
Did you work at the WTC or go there regularly? I worked there for 19 years. Even though I am proud of the rebuilding, it will never be the same.
I don't say this to in any way diminish the loss of human life, but to people with an attachment to the old World Trade Center, the loss of the place compounds the grief. I spent most of my working life there, Monday through Friday. I can close my eyes and walk through the Concourse and see it just as clearly as if it were yesterday.
I don't think I will want to go back to work at the new WTC, and not because I'm afraid that they'll be a terrorist target again. It's just that my heart was with a place in that location that's gone forever.
i think that them building a community center in downtown NYC does help bridge the gap. retracting into dark corners where no one can see them because people are "afraid" that Islam is responsible for the attacks does not help bridge the gap, it widens it.
Most people don't agree with you on this, and as usual, you take things to extremes ... maybe just trying to get your point across, but you lose validity when you do so. I never said anything about "retracting into dark corners where no one can see them". I said they should NOT have any building that was within the debris field. I believe many others feel the same way, and would be comforted with such a move.
If most people don't agree that this is a good location, there are probably going to be "consequences", in the form of vandalism or violence. I don't see how THAT eventuality could bridge any gaps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradykp
as you said about the pearl harbor and the concentration camps - maybe the japanese americans should have all just left until americans "healed" (i.e., got over their fear of japanese americans because they believed they were all spies for japan). i don't think that's right personally, and i don't think muslim-americans should have to all retract into dark corners and out of public eye until americans get over their ignorance and stop fearing muslims.
You've gone overboard again here! I never said anything about leaving the USA, nor this "dark corners" term you like, nor did I say "out of public eye". And "getting over it" is part of my point! Yeah, I DON'T think enough time has passed to "get over" the loss of friends, family and coworkers who were taken from us. Also ... how are we supposed to "get over" a fear, when a certain component of that very religion is trying so hard to INSTILL these fears ... AND succeeding very well!?!?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradykp
that's not what our country was founded on. for all the debate on what the interpretation of the constitution framers intended, this seems to be a pretty clearcut issue - they intended that all men (and women) be treated equal. we're not treating muslim-americans equally right now, just as we've had our faults in the past due to ignorance and fear that resulted in that ignorance.
Again, you're off the point. I never said I felt they didn't have the right to build the structure. Legally, Muslim-Americans enjoy the same freedoms and laws that we all do. They are not treated "differently" in this realm. If you're referring to the majority of peoples' personal opinions (and prejudices), then I might agree, and for that reason, this is not the time, and that location is not the place.
Did you work at the WTC or go there regularly? I worked there for 19 years. Even though I am proud of the rebuilding, it will never be the same.
I don't say this to in any way diminish the loss of human life, but to people with an attachment to the old World Trade Center, the loss of the place compounds the grief. I spent most of my working life there, Monday through Friday. I can close my eyes and walk through the Concourse and see it just as clearly as if it were yesterday.
I don't think I will want to go back to work at the new WTC, and not because I'm afraid that they'll be a terrorist target again. It's just that my heart was with a place in that location that's gone forever.
OMG, MightyQueen, we are in TOTAL agreement on this!!! Yes, I worked for the World Trade Department, doing my part to help run the center, for 25 years. I was deperately trying to GET IN the building that day, as I was an emergency responder, and my train was delayed by the first plane strike (I usually got in around 9:00AM).
Regarding the loss of "the place" ... you are RIGHT ON! Yup, I have not lived in a single home for 25 years, yet. But for 25 years, that center was "home" to me. And anything they build there will never be the same. It could never be.
You hit a sore spot ... crying as I post this.
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