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Oh one more thing. Teacher salaries do not equal the whole school budget. In my district ALL staffing raises (including admin and staff) are just 25% of our entire budget.
So good for you to vote to support a school budget you support, that does not remotely mean it was a raise for teachers equal to those seen in private industry. Not that it needs to be, teachers exchange high pay for low risk.
At least in my district we know where the increases go and every year some goes to teachers raises. I will actively make sure that raises do not go be 1 year to avoid this problem in the future.
Yikes I missed the JUST 25% part. Holy cow that would NEVER happen in the private sector.
I agree completely. It is human nature to think that. Sometimes it is true, sometimes it is not.
There are many necessary things in this nation that are in place DESPITE the voters will; civil rights, gun control, welfare, end of sufferage, etc. That is because as a republic we recognize that the good of the society is more important SOME TIMES than the voters will (and we are not a populist nation by any means).
I am not trying to say that this is the case with local school budgets. In fact I wish things would go to an independent mediator in these cases so that line items can be weighed instead of budgets taken as a lump. But the reality is the success of the community requires effective schools and SOMETIMES that means passing a budget (at least in part) that is not the voters will.
This is why some people don't vote. If voters' will can be ignored, why vote?
Ummm who is getting a raise? Listen we are $11 billion in the hole. look at it this way. I think you said your family was hit by a layoff. Beause of that layoff you cancel the newspaper delivery. What would you think if the delivery person showed up at your door and started screaming at you? You wouldn't be very sympathetic would you?
Maybe my analogy was a bit too abstract.
The raise was the refusal to continue the tax surcharge put in place to compensate for the tax cuts given by Whitman to the wealthy. The same initial tax cuts that caused teacher's pensions needed to be put into the state public fund and completely drained.
It is nice to know that you consider the education of children to be a service along the same degree of importance of newspaper delivery but aside from that it is still not an apt analogy. If you had a CONTRACT with the newspaper delivery service wouldn't you honor that contract until it expires?
Second, lets be really clear here for a minute. What teacher SCREAMS to the public? Who is being antagonizing Governor Christie or your child's teacher?
I have read WAY more than just an NJ.com article. I have been working my way through the primary research used to make that article, its been interesting. Have you? What did you think about the fact that the studies used widely varying definitions for wealthy? Or the fact the study was funded by an organization that helps the very wealthy get tax breaks?
LOL! I understood your analogy, its just not a good one.
First, you act as if my being concerned about my ability to support my family is selfish. Seriously? More demonizing people just trying to get by like anyone else.
You never did answer my question. Shall I assume you would take a pay cut so someone else wealthier can have a raise? Saintly of you.
Third, employment contracts are RARELY negotiated in the middle of the contract.
This is exactly the kind of thing that bothers me. TEACHERS are not wishing the governors death. ONE SINGLE union man, who by all accounts is a moron, did and you suddenly make it the goal of every teacher in the state.
Many of us have.
If parents really cared about education they would not be supporting cuts that will literally stop programs. Teacher pay freezes cannot make up for the budget shortfalls, it is not possible. Instead of working with the people who see the fat to be cut everyday, the Governor and some members of the public have chosen the easiest course not the wisest.
Ah but yet the union refuses to can the moron who made the statement.
If the union got rid of the fat cats at the top your union dues would go down to cover your health care contributions.
There are multiple studies showing wealth flight from NJ because of taxation. You seem to believe that the wealthy will passively accept any level of taxation, they won't. I have no special love for the wealthy but I do recognize that if they are chased from the state all NJ will look like Camden in no time.
Any time public cost cutting happens there are unhappy people. Read the mass transit threads. Teachers are being unreasonable. The only people who don't think so are teachers.
And of course you are wrong mortgage modification is LAW.
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shorebaby
I have read a whole lot of screaming on this forum from teachers.
Please read the thread it has been well documented that the current level of taxation is causing wealth flight from the state.
My goodness a teacher can't understand an analogy no wonder we are in such trouble. Yes contracts are renegotiated all the time. Ever hear about mortgage modification. I am sure you are very concerned about the rights of banks. Almost as concerned as you are about the fiscal health of the state.
Clearly teachers are being antagonizing, wishing the Governor's death. If teachers really cared about the kids they would agree to the Governor's reasonable request for a pay freeze and modest contribution to health care.
My sister & her husband pay 4% towards their healthcare insurance. They are being told that they have to pay an additional 1.5% for their district to get money from Christie.
Do you not understand that one clod in Bergen county made a tasteless & tacky comment about Christie? You are blaming all teachers, most of whom do not live in Bergen County.
What in the world do the banks have to do with this?
My sister & her husband have been teachers in South Jersey for 35 years. They have paid towards their pensions for 35 years. Originally, the teachers' pensions were separate, but the state insisted on taking them over.
When Christie Todd-Whitman got her tax cut passed, which everyone said would primarily help the wealthy, she got a law changed to allow her to use the teachers' pension money, that was deducted from their paychecks, to plug the budget hole. Everyone, including your hero, Chris Christie has used that money for the same purpose.
Don't you think that the teachers should sue the state for theft of their money that they paid for their pensions?
My sister & her husband pay 4% towards their healthcare insurance. They are being told that they have to pay an additional 1.5% for their district to get money from Christie.
Do you not understand that one clod in Bergen county made a tasteless & tacky comment about Christie? You are blaming all teachers, most of whom do not live in Bergen County.
What in the world do the banks have to do with this?
My sister & her husband have been teachers in South Jersey for 35 years. They have paid towards their pensions for 35 years. Originally, the teachers' pensions were separate, but the state insisted on taking them over.
When Christie Todd-Whitman got her tax cut passed, which everyone said would primarily help the wealthy, she got a law changed to allow her to use the teachers' pension money, that was deducted from their paychecks, to plug the budget hole. Everyone, including your hero, Chris Christie has used that money for the same purpose.
Don't you think that the teachers should sue the state for theft of their money that they paid for their pensions?
There have been 2 Democrat Governors since Whitman, how did they address the issue?
All that is irrelevent. No one is touching the pensions, the teachers will get their pensions. We have an $11 billion deficit we have to cut costs. Salaries cost money, they will be affected. Pretty simple.
In order to understand the banking references read the thread. It was in response to an inane point.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shorebaby
There have been 2 Democrat Governors since Whitman, how did they address the issue?
All that is irrelevent. No one is touching the pensions, the teachers will get their pensions. We have an $11 billion deficit we have to cut costs. Salaries cost money, they will be affected. Pretty simple.
In order to understand the banking references read the thread. It was in response to an inane point.
I read the thread, I understood the post that that was supposedly in response to.
You do understand, don't you, that most districts are not happy to open a contract that is going to run for one or two additional years, because it's going to cost them big money. You see, if a labor contract is opened, mid contract, both parties have to involve lawyers. Lawyers cost lots of money.
The union has staff lawyers. The school districts don't as a rule.
The pension money has been spent since Christie Todd-Whitman to plug the budget gap. I don't give a rip what party any of them belong to. It is & has been public knowledge, every year that that pension money was not being put in the pension fund. It has made the news on TV every single year that that money, which was deducted from the teachers paychecks was being used to plug the budget hole. It was on every newscast in Philadelphia & NJN. Surely it was on the other stations in the state.
I read the thread, I understood the post that that was supposedly in response to.
You do understand, don't you, that most districts are not happy to open a contract that is going to run for one or two additional years, because it's going to cost them big money. You see, if a labor contract is opened, mid contract, both parties have to involve lawyers. Lawyers cost lots of money.
The union has staff lawyers. The school districts don't as a rule.
The pension money has been spent since Christie Todd-Whitman to plug the budget gap. I don't give a rip what party any of them belong to. It is & has been public knowledge, every year that that pension money was not being put in the pension fund. It has made the news on TV every single year that that money, which was deducted from the teachers paychecks was being used to plug the budget hole. It was on every newscast in Philadelphia & NJN. Surely it was on the other stations in the state.
I will repeat. We have an $11 billion deficit. we have to cut spending. Teachers salaries will be frozen or there will be layoffs. Not a difficult concept. Don't need to reopen the contracts for layoffs. The union fat cats can take a hard line or protect their members, their choice. The fat cats will have their jobs tomorrow, their members may not.
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,814 posts, read 34,706,106 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shorebaby
I will repeat. We have an $11 billion deficit. we have to cut spending. Teachers salaries will be frozen or there will be layoffs. Not a difficult concept.
I'm fully capable of understanding that. Guess what? it's happening all over the country.
However, you are failing to address the misappropriation of teachers pension money. You also are ignoring the fact that many teachers already are required to pay for health insurance, but you still say that they are not. This is one of the half-truths that Christie has said that other people have pointed out to you, yet you seem to fail to understand that.
I am not a teacher, but I have worked union & non-union jobs. Guess what? In private industry, if it's a bad year, the labor contracts are not opened. It's too expensive. "In the real world" management takes the hit. When the contract is renegotiated, then you pay the piper. So is your superintendant & his or her staff & assistants taking a pay freeze & paying extra for their healthcare insurance?
I don't understand why you think that this mess has anything to do with "home rule" each teachers' contract is negotiated by district. That's why my sister & her husband already are paying 4%, while others pay lesser percentages & some pay nothing.
I saw Christie's budget address. He made it sound like no teachers pay for healthcare. That's a lie & he knew it. This is why I have said, all through this thread both sides are guilty. (I am referring to Christie & the union.)
Last edited by southbound_295; 04-15-2010 at 11:02 PM..
Reason: typo
This thread has degenerated into a flame war. It is closed.
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