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Please check my post about the changes in the Great North Woods I wrote for the Maine section. I postulated that the changes were a part of a long-term plan to change the wilder areas of the northeast and the west entirely into recreation areas for the ‘leisure class”. The reintroduction of wild predators into remote farming areas of the west is the counterpart of shutting down the paper industry in Maine and New Hampshire. To the, mostly city and suburban people that constitute the very wealthy, ranching and grazing on their public lands is just not right. These lands should only be used for the actual and spiritual recreation of the proper people that can afford the luxury. In their opinion cows and sheep destroy the range and their existence should be discouraged. Unwilling to actually come out and describe their plan and face the incredible resistance these folks just do things to make ranching uneconomical. Introducing protected predators with a taste for veal or lamb makes ranching uneconomical in a hurry.
This isn't the first time I've heard of this, and it makes sense, that the tree-huggers would come up with this sort of nonsense. What these people don't realize, is that, for the most part, ranchers and farmers are some of the best friends the environment has, if for no other reason, than the fact that they would be cutting their own throat, if they allowed wanton destruction of the environment, on the land they use. They understand, better than anyone, what it means to take care of the land; they live on it, and with it! Ranchers and farmers are the backbone of this country. Destroy that and you can kiss our country good-by. These people, quite often at a loss, keep this country fed. They do because they love the life, regardless that they will never get rich. They take better care of the environment than any tree-hugger could ever think of, day in, and day out, without any Hollywood hype, or having their faces plastered in newspapers. But, city folk want to make out the ranchers and farmers as being the bad guys, when it comes to problems in our environment, which simply amazes me!
There is an interesting magazine out there, for those of you interested, (if you haven't heard of it). It's called "Range" - the Cowboy Spirit on American's Outback. This mag is about real cowboys, ranchers, etc., people who work the land. It makes for some eye-opening reading.
Farmers, ranchers and woodlot owners can, indeed, be great stewards of the land until they are forced by rapacious agribusiness or excessive debt to plant fence to fence without any care of the top soil or overgraze to meet the mortgage or cut all the timber to pay a debt. Then the farmers, ranchers and foresters are actually destructive of the soil that makes their livelihood possible.
Once they have, through necessity, lowered the productivity they generally go broke and sell out at a greatly lowered price o somebody that stops cropping, grazing or timbering the land. The wealth that can afford this unproductive purchase will use the land for their private amusement. The fact that this use also eliminates all the business that supported the farmers, ranchers and timber men is not unwelcome because they provide a cheap labor pool for providing services to the people using the recreation. Neat huh?
I'm a farmer in NE GA right now and have plenty of acres to shoot and bury anything that attacks me or my critters!!!!
We have a large coyote population out here, I resolved mine by putting a mule in the pasture...solved that prob A lot of other livestock farmers are doing the same. A mule will kill predators...I've seen photos of a mule killing a Mt. lion!!!!!
[quote=CelticLady1;2274773]This isn't the first time I've heard of this, and it makes sense, that the tree-huggers would come up with this sort of nonsense. What these people don't realize, is that, for the most part, ranchers and farmers are some of the best friends the environment has, if for no other reason, than the fact that they would be cutting their own throat, if they allowed wanton destruction of the environment, on the land they use. They understand, better than anyone, what it means to take care of the land; they live on it, and with it! Ranchers and farmers are the backbone of this country. Destroy that and you can kiss our country good-by. These people, quite often at a loss, keep this country fed. They do because they love the life, regardless that they will never get rich. They take better care of the environment than any tree-hugger could ever think of, day in, and day out, without any Hollywood hype, or having their faces plastered in newspapers. But, city folk want to make out the ranchers and farmers as being the bad guys, when it comes to problems in our environment, which simply amazes me!
With all due respect, CelticLady, your expressed view of ranchers and farmers is romantic to a fault. These people are business people first and foremost and will do whatever they feel is neccessary with and to the land to make money, just like any other business person. This includes exploiting, raping, ruining and otherwise trashing land they own or lease if there is a buck in it. Sorry, it's the truth.
Farmers and ranchers are also the beneficiary of many, many BILLIONS of dollars in Federal subsidies and other payments. When similar funds are given to private individuals it's often called welfare...how are the many farm subsidies different? Taxpayer dollars pay to keep marginal operations afloat, bring water to places farmers have no business being, and otherwise remove the consequences of poor business decisions. This massive expenditure of our tax money distorts markets and, ultimately, costs every American a lot of money.
Why would imports of alcohol from Brazil (just to use one example) be made almost impossible while corn farmers are paid whopping amounts to grow more corn for ethanol production? Alcohol from corn is a very inefficient proposition compared to that from sugar cane, but we have lots of "big corn" lobbyists stalking the halls of Congress and few sugar cane advocates, that's why. The temporary boom in corn and ethanol from corn will bust before too long, and the taxpayer will be holding the bag, having subsidized the whole sorry affair. Not to mention the fact that a tripling of corn prices, while great for the subsidized and tariff protected farmer, will raise food prices considerably for everyone
If you're now shaking your head at the rantings of some "city folk" person, you'd be completely wrong. I grew up in farm country in the Midwest, have many, many farmers and a few ranchers for friends, and now live in a small agricultural town in NM. I know farmers & ranchers and respect both very much. But they're no different than the steel mill company that fouls the air in Pittsburg and complains that too many restrictions will drive them out of businss. They exist to make a profit and will do whatever they need to to survive. They also get very dependent on the largesse of the American taxpayer once they get a taste of it.
"these people, quite often at a loss, keep this country fed" is a perfect example of your well meaning but misguided romantic vision of agriculture.
Sorry, but any farm or ranch operation that loses money DESERVES to go out of business, first and foremost because it's obviously inefficient and ultimately costly to the country. This is a free country...and that freedom includes the freedom to fail in business.
If someone "loves the life" that's great... have your ranch, grow your crops, but don't expect taxpayers to pony up for water supplies, farm subsidies, manage your grazing rights on public land and other items of Federal welfare to the agricultural community. A cowboy or farmer probably wouldn't take kindly to being told to "stand on your own two feet", but that's all I'm suggesting they do....make your business a success or git along down the trail to something else.
I would exempt Agricultural Colleges, extension programs and research from most of this criticism, though that is also an area that needs to be studied for efficiency. Research in agriculture has wide ranging, sometimes unexpected, benefits to society and is by it's nature expensive and complicated.
Some crops, notably corn, wheat and soy, get huge subsidies to operate, while many other crops and farmers seem to do just fine without handouts....why is that? Political muscle and a sad system that allows farm bills like the one now in Congress to exist and grow is one reason..for starters.
Its a shame, and my good friends in agriculture are among the first to admit this is the case.
I have had several friends that tried to own and operate successful farms. They, even with subsidized and guaranteed milk prices, only made money when they sold out. I was arguing that the demise of agriculture in the wilder lands is part of a plan to increase the recreational opportunities for the primarily urban elite.
I also believe that soil conservation should be the primary focus of national agricultural policy. IMHO private profit, particularly corporate profit, is far less important than assuring an adequate long term food supply even if it requires some form of “rural welfare”. We need an agricultural policy that reversed the “get big or get out” policy we currently use. We need many more small commercially successful farms and no corporate latifundia (these were Roman investor owned farms operated with slave labor.)
I do not believe we should ever allow our country to become dependant on foreign food supplies no matter how economically efficient that may be. That is way too risky. I agree with you the corn-based ethanol is a disgrace. It is just a way to provide a profit for ADM and other huge agribusiness.
With all due respect, CelticLady, your expressed view of ranchers and farmers is romantic to a fault. These people are business people first and foremost and will do whatever they feel is neccessary with and to the land to make money, just like any other business person. This includes exploiting, raping, ruining and otherwise trashing land they own or lease if there is a buck in it. Sorry, it's the truth.
Farmers and ranchers are also the beneficiary of many, many BILLIONS of dollars in Federal subsidies and other payments. When similar funds are given to private individuals it's often called welfare...how are the many farm subsidies different? Taxpayer dollars pay to keep marginal operations afloat, bring water to places farmers have no business being, and otherwise remove the consequences of poor business decisions. This massive expenditure of our tax money distorts markets and, ultimately, costs every American a lot of money.
Why would imports of alcohol from Brazil (just to use one example) be made almost impossible while corn farmers are paid whopping amounts to grow more corn for ethanol production? Alcohol from corn is a very inefficient proposition compared to that from sugar cane, but we have lots of "big corn" lobbyists stalking the halls of Congress and few sugar cane advocates, that's why. The temporary boom in corn and ethanol from corn will bust before too long, and the taxpayer will be holding the bag, having subsidized the whole sorry affair. Not to mention the fact that a tripling of corn prices, while great for the subsidized and tariff protected farmer, will raise food prices considerably for everyone
If you're now shaking your head at the rantings of some "city folk" person, you'd be completely wrong. I grew up in farm country in the Midwest, have many, many farmers and a few ranchers for friends, and now live in a small agricultural town in NM. I know farmers & ranchers and respect both very much. But they're no different than the steel mill company that fouls the air in Pittsburg and complains that too many restrictions will drive them out of businss. They exist to make a profit and will do whatever they need to to survive. They also get very dependent on the largesse of the American taxpayer once they get a taste of it.
"these people, quite often at a loss, keep this country fed" is a perfect example of your well meaning but misguided romantic vision of agriculture.
Sorry, but any farm or ranch operation that loses money DESERVES to go out of business, first and foremost because it's obviously inefficient and ultimately costly to the country. This is a free country...and that freedom includes the freedom to fail in business.
If someone "loves the life" that's great... have your ranch, grow your crops, but don't expect taxpayers to pony up for water supplies, farm subsidies, manage your grazing rights on public land and other items of Federal welfare to the agricultural community. A cowboy or farmer probably wouldn't take kindly to being told to "stand on your own two feet", but that's all I'm suggesting they do....make your business a success or git along down the trail to something else.
I would exempt Agricultural Colleges, extension programs and research from most of this criticism, though that is also an area that needs to be studied for efficiency. Research in agriculture has wide ranging, sometimes unexpected, benefits to society and is by it's nature expensive and complicated.
Some crops, notably corn, wheat and soy, get huge subsidies to operate, while many other crops and farmers seem to do just fine without handouts....why is that? Political muscle and a sad system that allows farm bills like the one now in Congress to exist and grow is one reason..for starters.
Its a shame, and my good friends in agriculture are among the first to admit this is the case.
Contrary to your opinon, I am not quite as romantic about this issue as you think, and I am well aware that it is a business. Working on the land is a good life, but it is a hard one! I grew up on a ranch in Wyoming, and I've known many ranchers and farmers throughout my lifetime. Santa Rosa County where I live now, still depends a good deal on it's farmers and ranchers. And as such, you cannot convince me that ranchers and farmers, (collectively speaking), exploit, rape, ruin, or otherwise trash the land they own or lease, (at least, not the small family-run businesses. I cannot say as to the corporate ones). Why? Because, as I mentioned in my earlier post, they would cut their own throat in the process. Not very businesslike, is it? Most of these folks have long since learned that they cannot overuse fields for crops; that you must rotate and give the land a rest. They know which crops do best, and which nutrients are depleted in the soil, with which crops , and how best to counteract that. Unlike the Great Depression Era, they know it is vital to protect the topsoil, and they take steps to do so. Most ranchers and farmers know that they cannot overgraze and they must move their cattle, sheep, etc., to different pastures, else the animals can, and will, eat down to the root system, and affect the topsoil as well. They know how many cow/calf units can be placed per acre. Ranchers and farmers attend seminars, read agricultural periodicals, use the internet, consult with with their local County Extension offices, etc., in order to learn how best to utilize the land, so that they don't ruin it. Obviously, I am speaking in generalities here, as certainly not all agri-business folks do these things. But, the bulk of these folks, because they are business people, do exactly these things, and more, to get the most they can out of their land, without destroying it.
Insofar as my statement that many folks ranch and farm at a loss, I was not refering to their business practices, as such, (although most of these folks are extremely intelligent, when it comes to running their business. Some of the smartest people I've ever known have been farmers and ranchers). But, I don't believe most folks know of a way to control the weather, which greatly affects farming and ranching, which in turn, has a great deal to do with their profit margin. Bad weather can wipe out a farmer or rancher, at the worst, and can cut deeply into their profits, at the best. To say nothing of how the markets for crops and livestock fluctuate.
Regarding subsidies, I won't pretend to understand all the ends and outs of the system, though I do question it, (although, if I am not mistaken, do not other businesses get subsidies, breaks, and tax cuts? I'm not sure there is any difference). I also think that corn ethanol is a joke, and like yourself, I don't think it's efficient, and doubt it will last. However, before anyone gets in a big hurry to yank anything away from the farmers and ranchers, I would say that more needs to be done to ensure a decent market for these folks, if we want them to stay in business. If we have a squawk about how the farmers and ranchers are getting help, then we need to take it up with our government, not them. Our government is the one handing out money left and right, without so much as a by-your-leave. If my tax money is going to be used to help someone, I'd rather it go into subsidies for the farmers and ranchers than elsewhere. I'd rather "waste" my tax dollars on our agriculture, than using it to help some 3rd world country that would just as soon spit in our face, as not. I'd rather "waste" my tax dollars with Farmer Brown, and Rancher Smith, than give it to 3rd or 4th generation welfare recipients who don't work to support themselves. I'd rather see my tax dollars being used for the farmers and ranchers, than providing free or reduced-cost medical care, or low-cost loans to illegal aliens, (and before you say it, yes, I know that some farmers and ranchers hire these same illegals, and my answer to that would be that they, the same as any business or corporation, should be punished to the full extent of the law, for hiring them. Unfortunately, our government doesn't have the cajones to do that). I'd be very careful about how I deal with the farmers and ranchers in this country. They "fuel" the world, and I don't know about you, but I surely want them to stick around, because I like to eat!
Last edited by CelticLady1; 12-19-2007 at 01:46 PM..
Just to bring things back around to the OP, I wanted to ask, do these oryx run loose on public hunting grounds? I thought they were on private hunting ranches, but something someone else said on this thread made me wonder. I'd be curious to know. Also, are they gamey-tasting, or is it like any other wild game, and depend on how it's taken down, how it's dressed out, and of course, how it is prepared? My husband and I are rather intriqued. We've had elk, deer, and antelope, but no "foreign" critters. I guess, being a desert-type of animal, they must do well in NM.
I read that oryx are running free on White Sands Base and surrounding area.
And the last time I checked timber wolves are native to the Rocky Mountains (and that includes Yellowstone). They were killed out by ranchers and the government. By greed.
The wolf that's been re-introduced into NM is not a timber wolf. It's the Mexican wolf. A smaller wolf species that, to my knowledge, does not live and hunt in packs. I could be wrong. I find it extremely hard to believe these wolves were tame in any way.
I've been steps away from a large timber wolf and I could see it was afraid of me. It skulked into the brush asap. Peoples fears are so out of control when it comes to wildlife, including wolves. Maybe pets and children shouldn't be outside unsupervised.
Fire away..........
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A lot of other livestock farmers are doing the same. A mule will kill predators...I've seen photos of a mule killing a Mt. lion!!!!!
