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I'm not adding anything new, but I couldn't resist the opportunity to add my 2 cents.
We've encroached on their turf, folks, not the other way around. Balancing our needs with theirs, in our fragile ecosystem, is a challenge.
It is never acceptable to shoot or kill an endangered species, unless maybe you're in its mouth. And if you're in that situation, you must have been seeking them out and taunting them, because most will run if they see humans. So shame on you.
This is why I write letters to congress to lobby for the protection of our threatened and endangered wild cat and big cat populations.
And if I win the lottery, the first thing I'll do is buy a few hundred acres and open up a big cat sanctuary to relocate the displaced felines. Then they won't bug you at all.
What endangered cat species are you talking about? In NM only please.
Excellent smartyknickers! I do the same concerning advocacy matters and worthy charities and have done so for over thirty years. You have to walk the walk as well as talk the talk.
Predators run from humans because we're dangerous and have trained them to know so.
Humans run from predators because they're dangerous and have trained us to know so.
The guy attacked last june was cleaning himself up in his usual spot, in his usual way. Theres no guarantee, but I doubt he was harassing the lion. Places where animals become too used to humans, and unafraid, the danger to humans increases. Glacier transports out grizzlies that are too fearless and frequent places that people often go. Of course the place they transport them too has people also, but thats another story.
The assumption that people have a special classification in an animals mind simply because we're human is a bit nuts.
The person killed last june wasn't mauled and left. He was mauled, partially eaten, and buried. He was food. This was sad on both sides. It's sad that a family lost a loved one to the attack, and its sad that the cat had to be hunted down and killed.
However, f we're looking at this from a strictly input/response driven system, and take humans out of the picture, we see how OTHER species respond to dangerous cross species interaction. Some herd species gather and protect the young and weak. Predator to predator is usually a predator to prey interaction, one is trying to eat the other(or take the kill away from another). A predator attacking a lone animal, the animal will try to get away, or kick/claw/bite/growl to try and run the predator off. There have been videos showing how "calmly" the prey will lay while the predator chokes off its wind supply.. A large cat, hanging from your neck would make it difficult to do things to get away. Thats why the neck is a major target. The cat doesn't get within a magical distance causing the deer to offer its neck and give up. To expect that animals (which WE are) to not put up a fight when attacked is crazy. This is what this thread is about.
So Song, back to the main topic. Make lots of noise so that hopefully any aggressive animals will run away. Use your eyes and ears increasing the chance that you'll know something is in the area with you so that you can take appropriate measures to protect yourself. If it is legal in the area you are walking, carrying a gun is an option. The BEST is of course to avoid getting into a life or death situation in the first place, but if it comes down to you, or a lion, the winner should be you.
On the other side of this issue are the poachers, or the people who take their guns out to the woods and shoot everything in sight up to and including ranchers cows. Legal and licensed hunting I can deal with. Purposeless slaughter of everything that moves for no other reason than to be shooting something should have a harsh punishment.
The whole discussion about "entering their world" is a bit off too. People are part of the world. That isn't the problem. The problem is our huge success at survival, and the expansion of our population. Unlike a deer herd that over-expands the available resources, we don't die off. We build more grocerie stores, and shift necessities around as needed.
I am a great example of the success of humankind. I'm sitting here typing this with 20% lung capacity, wearing a mask to assist with my breathing, and should have died years ago. Yet here I am. I am doing my part. I have no children, and will not have any children to add to the problem. Why? Other than the genetic issues I'd pass on, if we keep expanding as we are, the future looks bad. The present doesn't look so hot as it is.
Unless there are some new huge breakthroughs, we're approaching the time where theres too little for too many. (ok so there are, and have been examples of this throughout time. Places where life is hard, people starve, die due to lack of medical care etc, but the total population is still increasing at a huge rate)
Humans have great management skills and capacity for learning. It would be nice if we could turn those skills toward managing US, then let everything else fall into place.
UNFORTUNATELY, STURGIS, people are WAY out of control. Our exponential rate of population growth cannot be sustained forever. We are spilling into areas best left to their endemic residents. We are pushing many species right into extinction...the documentation is vast and growing daily. Our hubris and self concern lead us in incredibly irresponsible ways. Nature cannot keep pace with this vast, growing human herd dude. We treat this planet as if we have a spare, pal, which we don't. Something needs to curb the rate of human expansion...or we need to start exploiting and exterminating and destroying other planets in our headlong assault on the universe my friend...this frail world will one day fail if we do not find some wisdom. This is truly a confederacy of dunces; lots of them!!!!!
Last edited by dracul; 09-03-2008 at 04:10 PM..
Reason: People are the most dangerous animals by far!
Up until a few years ago, everyone thought there were no more jaguars left in NM. But a hunter spotted a cat in Hidalgo County (and thank goodness didn't shoot them.) They are an endangered species. The majority of their population resides in Mexico. Wildlife activists are worried that a border fence will prohibit them from migrating back ad forth to breed with other members of their species.
And then there's the ocelot-- it's debatable whether they're protected, threatened or endangered, and they seem to have a different status depending on who you ask. It's also debatable whether they still live in NM, as most known populations have migrated to TX. This is my favorite species and I've 'adopted' them at the Rio Grande Zoo.
Sorry to bore you with the details. I love wild cats more than I would dare admit in real life, in fear of looking like a total nerd.
Yep, pretty sure thats exactly what I said. Interaction with wildlife has always happened. Will always happen. Managing wildlife resources is all well and good right up until we hit critical mass (aka population that can't be supported) . Managing wildlife is secondary to managing US. I don't care how much land is set aside to segregate us from "everything else" eventually we will cross the point of no return and everything will change.
People treat people badly as things stand right now, even here in a place that is STILL a land of plenty. Can you even imagine the chaos that will happen if things finally go boom?
But I disagree with your usage of the word "endemic" people are endemic to everywhere from sea level to sherpa-ville. Like ANY species, it is our sheer mass of numbers that is the problem. Like it or not, we are part of the eco system. Other species populations are controlled by predation, disease, and starvation. We kill each other, have accidents, and yes, even have animal attacks that help "pare" down our population, but unless we can learn how to stop this rampant growth, we will end up eating ourselves out of our "endemic" environments. Right?
So, I've done my part. I don't have kids. Since we both agree that people are way out of control, what suggestions do you have to solve our dilemma? Forced sterilization? Legal limits on how many children a family can have? Start more wars? I say this tongue in cheek, nobody wants more wars, nobody wants to be FORCED to not have children.
So, not to be blunt but, how would you solve this problem? And yes this is a serious question. Its really really EASY to see problems. Its can be really really difficult to solve them.
Your thoughts? And perhaps we should move this discussion to a new thread rather than hijacking this one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dracul
UNFORTUNATELY, STURGIS, people are WAY out of control. Our exponential rate of population growth cannot be sustained forever. We are spilling into areas best left to their endemic residents. We are pushing many species right into extinction...the documentation is vast and growing daily. Our hubris and self concern lead us in incredibly irresponsible ways. Nature cannot keep pace with this vast, growing human herd dude. We treat this planet as if we have a spare, pal, which we don't. Something needs to curb the rate of human expansion...or we need to start exploiting and exterminating and destroying other planets in our headlong assault on the universe my friend...this frail world will one day fail if we do not find some wisdom. This is truly a confederacy of dunces; lots of them!!!!!
Last edited by Sturgis; 09-03-2008 at 09:51 PM..
Reason: To remove the disrespectful dudes and pals.
I predicted several years ago that the Wild animals would come into town and we would become food for them. We have to decide whether we want to exterminate people or Wild Animals. If we have too many of one thing according to the Population area the Area we need to have a hunt and stuff this animals that are going extinct. The ones that are really going extinct they should be released around in the Gila in the Less populated areas. The Gila in N.M. is bigger the 2 eastern States. They will still pose a danger to the people around there so in which case when they do we should shoot them and if you can stuff them and donate them to a museum or School for a Mascot etc we should do that. Right now i wish i could find me some Bear Fat maybe i can find a bear run over somewhere in Tijeras canyon and get some. I use the Bear Fat to Predict the Weather. pintada kid at webtv.net
With the current state of crashing ignorance, fundamentalism and denial of reality;there IS NO SOLUTION. You are mistaken in YOUR use of the word endemic, by the way. Basic biology of speciation. Endemic denotes a species that has evolved in situ. Not an introduced species, such as ourselves into biomes we have not previously occupied. Indigenous implies what you suggest, although humans are not really long time residents in most environments, we are recent interlopers and out of place...not endemic as you suggest. WE ARE AN ADVENTIVE SPECIES and a destructive and parasitic one to boot. Although I think your heart is in the right place your concepts of basic biology need fine tuning my friend. As to solutions long term it will require sagacity far beyond what is evident in today's world. I highly doubt that we will survive ourselves sturgis. Sagan suggested that the reason we fail to receive the transmissions from far flung civilizations at SETI may be because they all reach a NEXUS point in their evolution beyond which they fail and self destruct; perhaps we are arriving at just such a point in our history. A grim prospect. I just hope that this planet somehow will........survive our excesses
Last edited by dracul; 09-04-2008 at 09:53 AM..
Reason: Endemic does not equal indigenous and does not equal adventive
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I Wish !!!
