Lets discuss Clinton/Hells Kitchen (New York, York: middle-class, transplants, real estate)
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I was recently in NYC at a Times Square hotel for a conference. I got the chance to do some walking and aside from checking out the urban disneyland at 7th and Bway (which I think has probably had more discussion here than it merits) I got to see the nabe from 8th to the waterfront. I found it kewl.
Quick points - A. Its changed a lot. When I was in HS in the 70s, it was considered dangerous to venture past 6th avenue. 8th was, I guess the scuzziest street in the city - not necessarily the most dangerous, but the scuzziest. 9th and beyond were all Puerto Rican, I guess (any residues of the Irish population?) and poor. In the 80s i began to hear about yuppies discovering food markets or something on 9th.
Today 8th seems to be in transition to more of what TS is, tourist heaven, and hi rises for overflow apts, hotels, and offices - but still some residual scuzz. 9th is yuppie restaurant heaven (some them surprisingly affordable, BTW). 10th to the river, residual industrial/auto uses, mix of housing, with some new hirises. Side streets including walk up tenements, and some really lovely brownstones.
Lots of new construction at all steps of the pipeline. Office and retail look soft - lots of retail vacancies, and one brand new office building I could see from the hotel was see-through. But my vague impression is the residential market is strong?
1. Is my impression correct - there is substantial "disequilibrium" in housing? IE the prices/rents are so high( cause this area is so convenient, and so hot, and the rest of NYC is so pricey), they justify a steady stream of new construction, and that the main constraint is the difficulty of assembling lots?
2. Who lives in the walkups? Poor folks on rent control? Junior yuppies? Artistes and actors?
3. Who is buying the condos? folks walking to work in midtown? Wall streeters? Empty nesters?
4. I saw one building UC, on 10th or 11th, that was to be a high rise condo but with a car dealership at street level. Never seen anything like that before - so NYC.
First order of business: It is Hells Kitchen, not Clinton...not Hells Kitchen/Clinton. Clinton is just a made-up name because realtors thought it sounded better than Hells Kitchen.
First order of business: It is Hells Kitchen, not Clinton...not Hells Kitchen/Clinton. Clinton is just a made-up name because realtors thought it sounded better than Hells Kitchen.
And today, now that the years of poverty are safely in the past, at least a few yuppie restaurants, in a triumph of reverse snobbishness, are proudly displaying the hells kitchen name. IIRC the ones that said "hells kitchen ___" tended to be among the more expensive. Having grown up in NY in the 1970s, I still tend to think of it as Clinton (there IS a dewitt clinton park, after all) so I gave both names, to get the most response, not to argue about the name.
There is a Dewitt Clinton Park, but that is moot. The name of the area is Hells Kitchen. I don't think the yuppie restaurants are trumpeting the proper name, I think they are just reminding the transplants/newbies that the area is Hells Kitchen, and not whatever name brokers fancy that particular year to get the newbies to rent/buy.
For the best response, you should call it Hells Kitchen. Not sure why a better response would include a name that is incorrect. You are simply lending credence to a falsehood.
The far West Side, from Chelsea to Hell's Kitchen, is the last part of Manhattan open to high-rise development. Buildings are being built there because the lots exist and zoning allows it. As Tenth Avenue has never been a particularly residential street, there's far less protest around new tall buildings (unlike the far East Side).
I lived in the low-rise part of Hell's Kitchen proper (47th and Ninth) about 4 years ago. The residents were primarily gay men priced out of Chelsea, actors and musicians, 20- to 30-something creative professionals (graphic designers, internet and new media) and a few old timers (although interestingly, far fewer than in more expensive neighborhoods like the East Village). Hell's Kitchen has been a transitional neighborhood for a long time. Even in the 80s and early 90s it attracted young, middle-class transplants who wouldn't even consider living in Alphabet City. It was skuzzy, but not as dangerous. Also, it has fewer Projects than other neighborhoods (like Chelsea or the LES) so it feels unusually gentrified.
The people buying the new condos are upper-middle class professionals. If I had to choose between a high-rise condo (a) in the Financial District, (b) on the East River waterfront (Williamsburg, Green Point) or (c) in Hell's Kitchen, I would choose Hell's Kitchen because it's more convenient. They're all aimed at the same demographic, i.e., professionals who have money but can't afford ultra-prime areas like Tribeca, the West Village or the UWS.
1. Is my impression correct - there is substantial "disequilibrium" in housing? IE the prices/rents are so high( cause this area is so convenient, and so hot, and the rest of NYC is so pricey), they justify a steady stream of new construction, and that the main constraint is the difficulty of assembling lots?
Definitely. There's also been some uncertainty over the proposed 10th Ave/41st St stop on the 7 train that has probably slowed what otherwise would be faster paced redevelopment in the area west of the Port Authority.
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2. Who lives in the walkups? Poor folks on rent control? Junior yuppies? Artistes and actors?
All of the above, although even the rent controlled/stabilized tenants are moving out because they can't afford much of the rest of the neighborhood any more. Lots of gay men of all ages, too, although skewed younger than Chelsea and the West Village.
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3. Who is buying the condos? folks walking to work in midtown? Wall streeters? Empty nesters?
Young Wall Streeters, foreign investors and generally the sub-40 party crowd. Some serious people, too, increasingly. More serious the further north and away from Times Square.
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4. I saw one building UC, on 10th or 11th, that was to be a high rise condo but with a car dealership at street level. Never seen anything like that before - so NYC.
Yup. Mercedes dealership on the first floor, likely customers on the upper floors. Right across from DeWitt Clinton Park, too.
There is a Dewitt Clinton Park, but that is moot. The name of the area is Hells Kitchen. I don't think the yuppie restaurants are trumpeting the proper name, I think they are just reminding the transplants/newbies that the area is Hells Kitchen, and not whatever name brokers fancy that particular year to get the newbies to rent/buy.
For the best response, you should call it Hells Kitchen. Not sure why a better response would include a name that is incorrect. You are simply lending credence to a falsehood.
A name of a thing is what people call it. Lots of people call it Clinton. At least at one time the City govt called it Clinton, there are non-profit service institutions with Clinton in the name, etc. It doesnt matter that it was invented by developers or that the name is different from what it used to be. Names change, like everything else. I included it so that someone who knows it as Clinton and not as Hells Kitchen would respond, and frankly to AVOID quibbles over the name. "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet ..."
As for the restaurants, I doubt they care about teaching newbies, as much as about making money. I think use of the name Hells Kitchen is to show how edgy they and their nabe are.
"I was having this delightful arugala and goat cheese salad with an impertinent little New Zealand Fume Blanc at this ADORABLE place on 9th near 47th..."
"Is that in Clinton?"
"Oh, darling, we NEVER call it Clinton, its HELL'S KITCHEN, only real estate developers trying to pretend it wasn't a squalid slum ever called it Clinton"
Names do change, but not because a realtor wants to rent you an apt for $1000 more bucks, or sell you a $ 1 million studio facing a chinese restaurant. It's Hells Kitchen...the end.
Names do change, but not because a realtor wants to rent you an apt for $1000 more bucks, or sell you a $ 1 million studio facing a chinese restaurant. It's Hells Kitchen...the end.
A name is what people call something, regardless of the reason.
BTW, I think it began to be called clinton when rents there were WELL below $1000.
I moved to a rent-stabilized 5th floor walk-up in Hell's Kitchen in '95 and two of my good friends still live in the same place. I can't address who lives in such buildings for the whole neighborhood, but their building is filled with the gamut from an opera singer to young transplants from old-timers to media VPs.
It's amazing how many services there are now. When I lived on 10th, the nearest ATM was on 8th at World Wide Plaza and it wasn't even available 24-hours a day. I remember once when I was running late to catch a train at Penn and I had to go to all the way to the Milford Plaza to get cash for a cab. I also recall meeting New Yorkers, telling them where I lived and getting lots of "be careful" advice. The only problem I ever had was the occasional guy who wouldn't believe that I wasn't a hooker while I was walking home from the subway.
Now, when I visit, Hell's Kitchen reminds me of Chelsea 15 years ago before it turned into Disneyland. And the young gay men seem so much younger. But then again, I'm a lot older now.
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