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There are virtual libraries of information available about why this happens. You should consult them. By posting this on CD, all you're going to do is invite people with no expertise on the issue to spew their prejudices--e.g. "they have a culture that doesn't care about education," "They have rotten parents and bad friends," etc.
There is a lot of academic literature that explores the issues of discrepancies in high school graduation rates among blacks and Latinos. I bet if I were to post citations, very few posters would actually read the articles to do further research.
As for this:
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Originally Posted by mps0909
WTF does what you just said have to do with what I said, I was referencing how chinese people are much much much smarter than Black people in general terms, something thats obvious to anyone with two eyes and ears.
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Originally Posted by NyWriterdude
Your stereotype of Asian Americans as supernerds is one that many Asian Americans feel annoyed with. The flip side of being a supernerd is that supernerds don't care about the money or prestige, just let them play with their little scientific toys and they'll be happy (no offense to anyone who works in science) . But Asians are like any other race, you have people of all interests and you have people with no interests.
mps0909's (and other posters') stereotype of Asian-American academic prowess does a disservice to Asian-Americans. There is a term for this phenomenon in academia: the model minority. There is literature on the model minority myth as is applies to Asian-Americans.
You sound like someone who has never spoken to Asians or Asian Americans about their career prospects here.
A lot of Asians and Asian Americans have spoken on the marginalization of Asians and how it effects their careers.
Engineers, doctors, and scientists max out at certain income levels. They make more than the average working class person, but they make NOTHING compared to CEOs, other executives, those working in entertainment, or for that matter sports. There was a lot of excitement among Asians when you got some well known Asian basketball players . Number one, yes, there are Asians who want to be in sports or entertainment for the same reasons that people of other races want to do these fields!!! MONEY!
Its all about the money, not about your education per se . And how you get the money depends on a variety of other factors here, including social networking, the family you were born into, etc.
Name one single Asian American Ivy Leaguer who is a CEO or politician. You'd find yourself hard pressed to do so. And don't think that Asian Americans are happy about this, or that they want this to continue.
I have met Asian Americans who also complained about marginalization in fields like advertising, film, tv, and other media jobs. The thing is, in expensive places like NYC and LA, these are very lucrative fields. Of course Asians want to be in these fields as well.
Your stereotype of Asian Americans as supernerds is one that many Asian Americans feel annoyed with. The flip side of being a supernerd is that supernerds don't care about the money or prestige, just let them play with their little scientific toys and they'll be happy (no offense to anyone who works in science) . But Asians are like any other race, you have people of all interests and you have people with no interests.
And as I said repeatedly, most Asians worldwide do not have college degrees and most have working class jobs, like people of all races.
Perhaps you should get off the soap-box and calm down, you are bringing too much emotional baggage in here. This may be some pet theory or subject of yours, but the facts stand. I am reporting factual information (available in the census data) about household income and education levels by group. There is a reason why asian-americans as a group, (and obviously I need to say "as a group" for your benefit, but no-one else's, since you think its some startling revelation that "everyone is an individual"), have outdone the majority whites in various sociological parameters. You are talking superficial impressions, not facts. Your reference to "asians", when I clearly have referred to the data for "asian-americans" is a red-herring as is your-argument-with-yourself about "supernerds", whatever they may be.
Your theory - educational success can't advance a group. You do seem aware of old-boy networks and specific knowledge kept secret from, or withheld from, minority groups, but then at the same time you throw up your hands and put the blinders on about education. Nothing can be done! is your impotent response. But its a numbers game when it comes to a population. Thats why you don't like the Census data. Carry on with your rant, you've dug the hole so I suppose you have to stay with it. Lets come back and look at household wealth among different racial groups in 15 years, and see which way the trend has gone. And then lets look at the educational trend.
And, like others who want to spend less time complaining and bloviating, and more time effecting a goal, I'll leave you now to your windy words and likely lack of achievement.
Name one single Asian American Ivy Leaguer who is a CEO or politician. You'd find yourself hard pressed to do so. And don't think that Asian Americans are happy about this, or that they want this to continue.
Rajat Gupta (Harvard), Brandon Wade, Jerry Yang, Andrea Jung (Princeton), Charles Wang, Indra Nooyi (Yale), Vikram Pandit (Columbia). Just a few that come to mind right now.
Brandon is from MIT and Jerry from Stanford - not Ivy universities but impressive nonetheless.
Agree they are under-represented at the CEO level but it's not true that you will be hard pressed to think of someone.
To bg7's point, they have the critical mass at entry level and mid management. So when it comes time for the ones on top to retire, it's the ones in the middle who will be promoted.
Also such pronouncements of success refer to the entire demographic. The average white person who may be working in a govenrment pension job is not going to be CEO anyway, nor is he or she going to be admitted into an ivy league school. So that fact that Immelt and Laflay lead F-500 companies means nothing to them.
Last edited by Forest_Hills_Daddy; 08-22-2013 at 08:51 AM..
Your theory - educational success can't advance a group. You do seem aware of old-boy networks and specific knowledge kept secret from, or withheld from, minority groups, but then at the same time you throw up your hands and put the blinders on about education. Nothing can be done! is your impotent response. But its a numbers game when it comes to a population. Thats why you don't like the Census data. Carry on with your rant, you've dug the hole so I suppose you have to stay with it. Lets come back and look at household wealth among different racial groups in 15 years, and see which way the trend has gone. And then lets look at the educational trend.
And, like others who want to spend less time complaining and bloviating, and more time effecting a goal, I'll leave you now to your windy words and likely lack of achievement.
I did not say educational success can't advance a group. I said educational success is overrated.
So where are all the Asian Americans CEOs? That's a part of statistics too. Can you show me the overwhelming success Asian Americans have had in representation in the top jobs? You cannot, because there are know stats that claimed that.
Yes, there are more Asian American dentists, per their population probably, than there are of ethnic groups (and similar professions like MDs, where Asians are presented at higher levels than other groups). So that's why the AVERAGE household income is higher. But not all Asians want to be MDs or dentists, and from there those who want to do other fields have run into problems. There's a lot of literature on this, if you were open minded enough to read it.
Here's some comments about the Model Minority stereotype.
"The Model Minority stereotype also comes with an underlying notion of their apoliticality. Such a label one-dimensionalizes Asian Americans as having only traits based around stereotypes and no other human qualities, such as vocal leadership, negative emotions (e.g. Anger or Sadness), risk taking, ability to learn from mistakes, desire for creative expression or intolerance towards oppression."
The above stereotypes places on Asian Americans (the supernerd) tend to be placed on educated people or people perceived "smart" in general. They are stereotyped as being passive, obedient, studious, but severely lacking in most human emotions. In other words, its dehumanizing.
You harp up on the educational attainment of some people, yet I hear nothing about whether people are happy and content on their lives.
The American Psychological Association says that Asian American students have a higher suicide rate than white students.
"Fact: Asian-American college students had a higher rate of suicidal thoughts than White college students but there is no national data about their rate of suicide deaths."
Asians outside of college have lower suicide rates than the American average. At the Ivy League, we had quite a few Asian students kill themselves. And this is a statistic as well. And yes, education was overrated if its driving people to kill themselves.
According to this, for high school students 9-12 grades, serious contemplation of Asian American men and women is higher than that of White Men and Women.
Check out to see what Dr. Noh, an Asian American Professor, says about the effects the model minority stereotype has on Asian Americans.
"Dr. Noh first went over suicide rates between 1981 and 2010, including the fact that Asian Americans between the ages 5-9 and 70+ have the highest suicide rates of any other ethnic category, explaining any apparent discrepancies in the data. She then went over the leading methods of suicide used by Asian American females (suffocation), white females (poisoning) and white males (firearm). She explained that since most suicides committed by Asian American females are less violent than those of white males, the quantity of Asian American female suicides is greatly overlooked.
In her research, Dr. Noh interviewed 43 Asian American women in the San Francisco Bay, Houston, New York and Los Angeles/Orange County areas. Noh’s interest in the research was first spurred in college, when her sister committed suicide. She wanted to find out why the numbers were so high and affected Asian American females in particular, coming to find out about the “model minority myth” – the myth that all Asian Americans hold Confucian values; hard work, respect for authorities, family cohesion and sacrifice which translates to success and low crime rates. The term was coined by William Peterson in 1966 and later used by the U.S. News and World Report in the same year in an article that compared Asian Americans to African Americans.
Dr. Noh explained that the model minority myth is harmful to Asian Americans in three ways: it pressures them to live up to it, makes them vulnerable to racism and sexism and the image of success results in them being overlooked in the distribution of needed resources."
According to this, the push to be perfect hits females harder than males, which is why suicide among Asian American young women (ages 15-24) particularly if their parents are pushing for college or if they are in college, is higher than that of white women,
So where are all the Asian Americans CEOs? That's a part of statistics too. Can you show me the overwhelming success Asian Americans have had in representation in the top jobs? You cannot, because there are know stats that claimed that.
Yes, there are more Asian American dentists, per their population probably, than there are of ethnic groups (and similar professions like MDs, where Asians are presented at higher levels than other groups). So that's why the AVERAGE household income is higher. But not all Asians want to be MDs or dentists, and from there those who want to do other fields have run into problems. There's a lot of literature on this, if you were open minded enough to read it.
Didn't you say "it's all about the money"? So if it's all about the money then doesn't it follow that the group that has higher wealth and income comes out ahead? Emotional issues are a red herring because we all know it comes with the turf. People who make more money have more stressful and demanding jobs and academic lives regardless of race and that will of course lead to emotional issues.
CEOs are not a part of any meaningful statistics. Only a small minority of people will become CEOs such that it does not lift the average income and wealth scores. Most whites will not become CEOs, movie stars or pro athletes.
Didn't you say "it's all about the money"? So if it's all about the money then doesn't it follow that the group that has higher wealth and income comes out ahead? Emotional issues are a red herring because we all know it comes with the turf. People who make more money have more stressful and demanding jobs and academic lives regardless of race and that will of course lead to emotional issues.
And read those links and articles I posted, where a lot of Asian American academics are speaking out about this, including one Asian American professor whose sister killed herself. So emotional issues are not a red herring.
I said academic achievement is not the be all and end all of everything, and its not for most people in ANY ethnic group. I find it interesting how a bunch of white guys IGNORE Asian Americans, who they claim are a model group, when they say things that whites don't want to hear, such as the Asian professors and Doctors above.
But you did say "it's all about the money". That is what elicited bg7's reply which is very valid and it is true that the path to more wealth and income is higher academic achievement. Yes, you can ditch the SAT prep and be rich playing pro basketball but what if that doesn't work out? What other options would one have?
Of course in the process one must choose his poison. Careers that offer more paths to success are also more demanding and stressful - so you will observe higher suicide rates. But this is really the case for anyone who chooses such careers regardless of race.
"During our class discussion on stereotypes about Asian Americans last week, we talked about the concept of "model minority" and how it contributes to the stereotyping of Asian Americans as being "apolitical." Not only that the voice of the Asian community is seldom represented in the major public debate, but whenever there emerges a controversy regarding Asian Americans, it is about cultural differences in parenting style (such as the "Tiger Mother" debate) or about fashion, acting and the construction of beauty ideal (as it appears on the top Google search results). I remembered following the past midterm election and was struck by the fact that only the state of Hawaii had Asian Amercian candidates. In formal politics arena, Asian American women's voice is even further diminuated as out of the 12 Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders currently serving in the 112th Congress, only three are women."
"According to World Journal, as the Asian American population in the country continues to grow, a large number of Asian Americans have felt marginalized at work. In response, the Asia Society held its 4th Annual Leadership Seminar last week to encourage them to work together in order to feel a sense of belonging. The article is translated from Chinese below.
Although the Asian-American population has increased significantly in the United States, Asian-Americans constitute less than 2 percent of all chief executive officers that work at Fortune 500 companies, according to a recent survey by the Asia Society. Furthermore, the study reveals that while 83 percent of Asian-American employees feel loyal to their company, only 49 percent of those employees feel they belong."
This organization, the Asian American Film Lab, is a group of Asian Americans who feel marginalized in the media (film and tv in particular). Yes, there are Asian Americans who want careers in the film and television industries, among other media jobs.
"The Asian American Film Lab is a 501(c)(3) not-for-profit organization devoted to the promotion and support of gender and ethnic diversity in film and television programming. Through our education and outreach programming, we connect filmmakers of color, provide seminars, screenings, opportunities to workshop scripts, and more. We also run the famous 72 Hour Shootout, an annual, high-profile filmmaking competition organized with the support of Asian CineVision and the Asian American International Film Festival, through which we work to ensure that stories and voices too often silenced in mainstream media are heard, not just as whispers, but as shouts to the world."
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