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@ TOKidd: Wha??? There is nothing esoteric, idyllic about poverty. I agree with NYwriterDude, it sucks. I also agree with SobroGuy -- let them see the other face of NYC. It is not some utopian paradise; it is the real life, where drugs, incarceration, murder, filth, arson are rampant.
TOkidd...Did I not already tell you to stay in Toronto and discuss things you actually have some knowledge of? I am a recent transplant? I want the place to become Williamsburg? I am a realtor and/or speculator? And you gleaned all that grossly wrong information from my prior posts?
I am not putting my Bronx cred on here...those who are regulars on here know the facts. I am complaining that they STOPPED the tours and only want to show Yankee stadium, The Bronx Zoo, and Botanical Gardens and say how beautiful the Bronx is while ignoring the real generational and overhwelming problems of the borough. That's like taking a tour of Brooklyn Heights and Prospect Park and saying, well that's pretty much Brooklyn..isn't it perfect? And then how can you construe me trying to make sure the epic poverty is not dismissed and ignored into me wanting to make the nabe into the next Williamsburg? Huh?
Now please, I ask you to go and stay in the Toronto boards, you are incapable of making logical conclusions and deductions from comments, make gross misrepresentations, and generally have no idea what you are talking about. Scram!
While I agree with Sobroguy many people here that the tour is just a business, but somewhere buried in TOkidd's tirade is an excellent point. Understand clearly that part of the intent of the people in the tour - whether they are the tourists, owners or guides - is to mock and belittle the people in poorer neighborhoods. Of course nobody among them will say that is their intent but it's pretty obvious. Let's put it another way, why isn't there another highly-visible company doing a "Guido Tour" in Staten Island/Howard Beach, or throwing an Orangeman's Day party in Woodlawn? It's just a business anyway, right? Everything is in good nature and nothing is personal? Simple - they are terrified of offending the people in those areas and won't swallow the "it's just a business" excuse. Now if the people in Staten and Woodlawn won't put up with being insulted in their own neighborhoods, why should the people in Mott Haven accept it in the spirit of showing both sides of the story?
While I agree with Sobroguy many people here that the tour is just a business, but somewhere buried in TOkidd's tirade is an excellent point. Understand clearly that part of the intent of the people in the tour - whether they are the tourists, owners or guides - is to mock and belittle the people in poorer neighborhoods. Of course nobody among them will say that is their intent but it's pretty obvious. Let's put it another way, why isn't there another highly-visible company doing a "Guido Tour" in Staten Island/Howard Beach, or throwing an Orangeman's Day party in Woodlawn? It's just a business anyway, right? Everything is in good nature and nothing is personal? Simple - they are terrified of offending the people in those areas and won't swallow the "it's just a business" excuse. Now if the people in Staten and Woodlawn won't put up with being insulted in their own neighborhoods, why should the people in Mott Haven accept it in the spirit of showing both sides of the story?
Forest Hills...you are just speculating and assuming it is something for the purpose of belittling. Is it ok to go on tours of wealthy residences and gawk? Take pictures? Is that belittling? Is it belittling to go on tours of the old tenements and learn how NYC residents used to live? Is it belittling to see how today people are living in epic, generational poverty in the wealthiest city in the country?
Some people go on tours to the regular touristy areas, like Times Square, Rockefeller Center, and Ground Zero. Others prefer to take the road less traveled and see what "real people" do, live, and get a real understanding of the places they visit outside of the shiny buildings and tourist traps. This tour was serving a purpose, and that was to show people the side of NYC that nobody wants them to see...and for that reason, and that reason only, I believe it is extremely important. And to allege it is purely for belittling, while every other tour is some sort of moral, intellectual, and blessed event is silly.
I do not want people coming to the Bronx, seeing Yankee Stadium, the NY Botanical Gardens, Wave Hill, and the Bronx Zoo and saying how idyllic the borough is, and have the Borough President patting himself on the back like it is "mission accomplished." Because that is exactly what they are trying to do..it is a gross disservice to all the people suffering, a gross misrepresentation of the borough, and only serves to make the Borough President look good.
It is a legitimate business, and simply because the politicians don't want their dirty laundry aired means it should be shut down? Truth should never be shut down..and this tour was just revealing what is already there...and their spin on it, whatever it is, may be good, or may be bad, but hiding it is worse. Maybe we should use this same standard to shut down every other business....bodegas are often dirty and make the borough look bad..let's shut them down.
You may believe it is insulting to have people view poverty in NYC, but I think hiding it and shuttling people to see only a handful of areas and extolling the virtues of the Bronx is worse.
PS-These types of tours have been happening in Harlem for about a decade...and nobody said a peep. It is a knee jerk reaction by a Bronx Borough President who has done nothing for the borough, and in fact made things much worse and continues to do so...and he doesn't want to be exposed.
Forest Hills...you are just speculating and assuming it is something for the purpose of belittling. Is it ok to go on tours of wealthy residences and gawk? Take pictures? Is that belittling? Is it belittling to go on tours of the old tenements and learn how NYC residents used to live? Is it belittling to see how today people are living in epic, generational poverty in the wealthiest city in the country?
Some people go on tours to the regular touristy areas, like Times Square, Rockefeller Center, and Ground Zero. Others prefer to take the road less traveled and see what "real people" do, live, and get a real understanding of the places they visit outside of the shiny buildings and tourist traps. This tour was serving a purpose, and that was to show people the side of NYC that nobody wants them to see...and for that reason, and that reason only, I believe it is extremely important. And to allege it is purely for belittling, while every other tour is some sort of moral, intellectual, and blessed event is silly.
I do not want people coming to the Bronx, seeing Yankee Stadium, the NY Botanical Gardens, and the Bronx Zoo and saying how idyllic the borough is, and have the Borough President patting himself on the back like it is "mission accomplished." Because that is exactly what they are trying to do..it is a gross disservice to all the people suffering, a gross misrepresentation of the borough, and only serves to make the Borough President look good.
It is a legitimate business, and simply because the politicians don't want their dirty laundry aired means it should be shut down? Truth should never be shut down..and this tour was just revealing what is already there...and their spin on it, whatever it is, may be good, or may be bad, but hiding it is worse. Maybe we should use this same standard to shut down every other business....bodegas are often dirty and make the borough look bad..let's shut them down.
You may believe it is insulting to have people view poverty in NYC, but I think hiding it and shuttling people to see only a handful of areas and extolling the virtues of the Bronx is worse.
PS-These types of tours have been happening in Harlem for about a decade...and nobody said a peep. It is a knee jerk reaction by a Bronx Borough President who has done nothing for the borough, and in fact made things much worse and continues to do so...and he doesn't want to be exposed.
Most of the Bronx is run down and disgusting. Why would anyone want to show visitors that when the Bronx is already stereotyped as being that way? P.S. Wave Hill is in Riverdale, NY.
Most of the Bronx is run down and disgusting. Why would anyone want to show visitors that when the Bronx is already stereotyped as being that way? P.S. Wave Hill is in Riverdale, NY.
Apparently they want to show visitors that because the visitors are paying to see that. Plain and simple.
Most of the Bronx is run down and disgusting. Why would anyone want to show visitors that when the Bronx is already stereotyped as being that way? P.S. Wave Hill is in Riverdale, NY.
You don't know what your talking about.
The Bronx is vibrant, diverse, full of beautiful architecture, plenty of interesting neighborhoods and people. Some of the most beautiful architecture in all of NYC is in the Bronx (Just take a walk down the Grand Concourse). The Bronx is full of spectacular examples of the pre-war apartment buildings, probably the most important type of building in this city's history. Not to mention it is a truly urban area, more dense then Brooklyn in build, numerous urban parks, a world class zoo, authentic cultural neighborhoods, a winning team, and fantastic mass transit options.
Forest Hills...you are just speculating and assuming it is something for the purpose of belittling. Is it ok to go on tours of wealthy residences and gawk? Take pictures? Is that belittling? Is it belittling to go on tours of the old tenements and learn how NYC residents used to live? Is it belittling to see how today people are living in epic, generational poverty in the wealthiest city in the country?
Let's not be naive about this. If you want convincing then ask this - Why don't these businesspeople offer the following events?:
"Guido Tour - Staten Island", then claim that it's just a business that visitors want to pay for and people in SI should be good sport about it.
"F@g Tour - West Village", then claim that it's just a business that visitors want to pay for and gays in WV should be good sport about it.
"Happy Orangemen Day Parade - Woodlawn", then claim that it's just a business that visitors want to pay for and people in Woodlawn should be good sport about it.
"Hey Jew (a la Paul McCartney) Line Dance Block Party - Boro Park", then claim that it's just a business that visitors want to pay for and people in Boro Park should be good sport about it.
How about this tour guide Lynn Battaglia do a "Down and Out in the Rustbelt" tour in her home town in Pittsburgh?
Do you know why?
In SI, the residents would descend upon their "tour" with bats and lead pipes and bash their faces. They won't get a chance to reason out.
In WV, the gays will scream "hate crime" until they back off. They won't get a chance to reason out.
In Woodlawn, the residents would break whiskey bottles over their heads. They won't get a chance to reason out.
In Boro Park, the residents will cry "anti-semitism" until they publicly apologize. They won't get a chance to reason out.
If this happened in many places, people there would take it as a slap in the face and retaliate - right or wrong. No reasoning out, no pleading to show a "balanced" POV, no excuses about the tour being a paid service. But in South Bronx, some people would like to turn the other cheek and reason out that it's all in the spirit of a "balanced discussion" and meekly accept what other people would term as an insult.
Do you know why they chose the Bronx? Because they know they can pick on the people there. That's all it is about.
@ TOKidd: Wha??? There is nothing esoteric, idyllic about poverty. I agree with NYwriterDude, it sucks. I also agree with SobroGuy -- let them see the other face of NYC. It is not some utopian paradise; it is the real life, where drugs, incarceration, murder, filth, arson are rampant.
When did I ever say that I wanted the Bronx to be poor and revert back to the way it was in the 70's and 80's? As someone who has lived below the poverty line for many years and spent the past ten years teaching in low-income neighbourhoods in my home city, I know there is nothing idyllic about poverty or neighbourhoods where it festers. I'm not sure where NYwriterdude got the impression that I thought poverty and the derelict, crime-ridden version the Bronx or NYC had not long ago was something to be admired and longed for. I've never said or implied that in any of my posts.
I believe that I have consistently expressed my dismay about the gentrification of New York, not in the sense that it has improved the city's quality of life, but that it has made it almost impossible for middle income people and the poor to live in the city. I think the Bronx has made enormous strides and stand by my statement that no neighbourhood - oh, sorry: borough - in America has come as far in such a short time as the Bronx has. In 1990 it was still arguably the worst slum in America, and now just 23 years later, it is a decent, liveable neighbourhood with crime rates lower than many nice parts of NYC had in the 80's and 90's. I never said that there weren't still problems. I don't wear rose-tinted glasses, and I know all about the problems the Bronx still faces, but to paraphrase the Virginia Slims ad from the 1960's - it's come a long way, baby. If you can come up with a comparable example, props to you, but it's hard to deny the remarkable nature of the borough's transformation. Even comparing it to 1998 - the first time I ever stayed there - what I saw last time I was there a couple of years ago was astounding. Hell, even since 2003 the changes have been huge. And I applaud them. I just don't want the Bronx to become the next darling of NYC realtors. I live in a city where the same thing has happened, and struggle to find any neighbourhood I can live in that fits my budget.
My desire for the Bronx is that it continues to be a haven for middle-class and poor New Yorkers, where they can have a decent quality of life and not worry about it turning into yet another gentrified, overpriced area of a city with precious little real estate left for those who are not wealthy. The rates of violent crime continue to drop, and I think that's great.
BUT....that was not what my last post was about. I was talking directly to SobroGuy, because his comments to me since I started posting here have been mean-spirited, arrogant, and rude. So I thought this time around I'd see how he liked it when someone called him out on the board. My views about the borough really had nothing to do with the post I directed at him.
Anyways, I welcome any of you to dig up my past posts on this board and give an example of me being enamoured with crime and the bad old days of the Bronx, or wishing that somehow things were still like that. I've known too many people who have been locked up, murdered, severely injured by violence, or addicted to drugs to think that the "ghetto" lifestyle is somehow cool. But I lament the loss of the poor and middle class in New York, because they are the beating heart of any city. They are the creators of culture, while the rich are mostly just the consumers of it and ones who profit most from it. No one wants their neighbourhood taken hostage by gangsters and hoodlums. I've lived in a place like that, and I left after six months because I was afraid for my girlfriend's safety coming home at night. The threat of random violence and police harassment was also omnipresent, and I could not live like that any longer. I also know that that particular neighbourhood would seem like paradise compared to the Bronx circa 1968-1994, so why would I want something like that to exist when I personally could not tolerate it? At the same time, I don't want to see a neighbourhood like the Bronx taken over by realtors trying to turn a quick buck without giving a rat's ass about affordable housing or where the people living in the neighbourhood are going to go when their tenements are gutted, their projects turned into co-ops, and their rents raised beyond what they can pay.
I hope I've clarified my position here, and if you don't agree with what I've written about SobroGuy, what can I say? I just wanted him to see that it wasn't cool to have some faceless twirp sniping at you from behind a computer screen from 500 miles away. I tried not too long ago to express my feelings about the tone of certain posters on this board without naming names, and he rightfully assumed I was talking about him and responded with the same attitude that pissed me off in the first place. So this time I went at it a bit more direct. I thought New Yorkers respected that kind of no-BS attitude
Last edited by TOkidd; 06-26-2013 at 06:15 PM..
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