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Well said. You're right that it's not the city's fault. The low number is attracting fewer and fewer "good cops", leading to more corruption and less actual policing, while the veteran cops take in all the benefits. But I don't think people try to blame the city, but rather want to know what the city can do to help remedy the situation. IMO, the NYPD is far too worried about itself than the city, and something needs to be done about that.
It is the city's responsibility to hire qualified cops. If the city knows it is not attracting enough "good cops", then the city has an obligation to the public to correct the problem. The city is currently offering NYC cops two 3% raises when their salaries are about 25% below everyone elses. THAT is what the city thinks of NYC cops. And that is why young people are avoiding the NYPD
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the Police Unions choose NOT to educate the public and potential recruits about how much they DO actually earn....which is FAR more than the scary $28,000
The city advertises the salary of the NYPD at an inflated number that includes "an avg. amount of OT." And still, recruitment is in the toilet. Guy, how STUPID do you think young people are? They see their friends, brothers and sister joining the NYPD and then leaving after only a couple of yrs. There are literaly thousands of young former NYPD cops telling their family and friends NOT to join the NYPD. Accusing the unions of hiding the truth is laughable. JUST ABOUT EVERYONE KNOWS THE TRUTH ABOUT WORKING IN THE NYPD, THAT IS WHY THEY HAVE A RECRUITMENT PROBLEM, AND THE OTHER PD'S IN OUR AREA DO NOT HAVE THESE PROBLEMS b/C THEY PAY BETTER!
Money talks and BS walks!
Top Pay in NYC= 60K, in the other PD's in our area it's about 75K-95K, and the working conditions are a lot better. People who want to be cops usually know cops, and/or they go to message boards where cops post. You don't have to pay thousands of dollars to get the information you need to figure out what Law Enforcement jobs are considered attractive and are sought after, and which are not.
Last edited by SouthQueens149; 01-19-2008 at 04:48 PM..
southqueens............is'nt amasing how a lot of these people think that you guys are paid o k and how it's your fault you are paid so little...........where do, you want to get the money ...... i own a 2 vfamily house worth 900k i only pay 3000k taxes raise my taXES IF YOU HAVE 2.................
SouthQueens...I do not claim that it is a secret that cops are underpaid for the job that they do...what I claim is that the UNIONS and the MEDIA play up the $28K salary as if that is ALL they earn, poor cops...they have it so bad...how can they live on $28,000. The fact remains that they DON'T live on $28,000..yet all you hear is $28,000.
I do not disagree that there is an O/T cap, because if there weren't every cop would be earning $200,000 in O/T!! Lol.....the point is, however...they make much more than the $28,000 their first year due to O/T, and every year thereafter..because the BASE income is small compared to the O/T they make...which again...is not advertised by ANYONE.
It is the city's job to attract good cops, no doubt, but it is not because of the salary, it is because of the salary, the job itself, the environment, the bureaucracy, the management, the legal system, and the Unions. If the police department were paying $100,000, it still would not attract me, but it would attract ALOT more people...not because they were "good" or necessarily any better than the curretn crop, but because more than likely cuz they wanted the money.
It is also clear that other counties are a big draw for "good" cops because of the entire package, salary, environment , etc....not just because of salary. The city can't compete with Nassau and Suffolk county anymore than it can compete with any other state or county in the country...it is completely different.
I do not doubt at all that people are telling their friends/kids not to join the force...I would tell my kid the same thing...I would not want him to go down that road because it is not worth it...there is no denying that....not just because he/she can get a higher salary somewhere else. For cops though, as I stated, in my experience, it is usually the least equipped, least ambitious, least intelligent, least capable that have joined the force...so considering they have little options anyway..theya re doing just fine. I don't doubt that there are former military 5 star whatevers on the force also, MBAs, JDs, CPAs whatever, but that is NOT representative of the POlice Force..that is the EXCEPTION. What you have in the Police Force is the Columbus HS C+ graduates, who went on to Bronx Community College for an ever more abysmal education, graduated with an AA, and the only route they can take is a union job of any kind, especially the Police Force. THAT is representative of the police force..it is not a judgment, or any sort of knock on them..just a reasonable assessment of who the majority of the force is.
I do blame alot of the problems on the Unions..if you think an arbitrator came up with the new pay scale for recruits and senior officers you are not aware of how it went down. It was the Unions that proposed this solution, and the city accepted DURING arbitration. It was not the arbitrator in any way that proposed this....feel free to do your homework.
Furthermore I do not blame cops for anything. I think for the skills that they have, and what they have to deal with day in and day out..it is certianly not worth it at just about any salary. However, for many of these people, it IS a way for them to get a decent salary, excellent benefits, PLENTY of O/T, and a nice pension after 20 years, and healthcare forever. Not a bad deal for those that had a dim future to begin with....my 2 cents.
First, to answer one poster's question... there are about 800 members of the department who are captain or above. Less than 5% of the force.
GWAC, once again you amaze me how naive & misinformed you are. The unions went to arbitration (PERB namely) and was forced to accept their determination.... twice in the last 5 years. The last decision there was a 5% a year for two years raise, opposed to the 3% raises the city was offering. In order to fund the raises, the board lowered the starting salry fro $32k a year to $25k a year. You need to do a little research before you make your outlandish statements. But hey, I'm getting used to them!
QueensSouth is abosultely correct about the overtime limit... he did not mention that if you go over the 35 hr a month cap you commit internal suicide and can be barred from desirable transfers and denied using your comp time.
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I know that when I was in High School...it was ONLY the bad kids, those that did the poorest in school, or who were otherwise phukups, losers, or deviants in some way...that ALWAYS became cops...and I am confident that fact has not changed. So these people, who were typically bad students, with overtime and all the huge benefits, are doign quite well as NYC Police Officers. NO they cannot buy the townhouse next to Bloomberg, and starting out it is challenging (asa it is for most poeple) but the reward IS there, and they in fact do quite well. Don't believe the hype.
Your assertion that all cops are social phukups is the most ludicrous thing you have ever mentioned. Of course there are malcontents & misfits in every occupation. I suppose when you grow up in a place like Mott Haven you don't have much to compare against. I went through the academy with all types of people. Some were from Long Island & upstate, some were from the 5 boroughs. Many were college grads or left while in college and some gave up very promising careers to do a very noble profession. You statement is ridiculous and I think is veiled jealousy.
NYC and it's residents deserve a professional police department.... therefor it is a profession. It may not require as much education as a doctor or laywer but the job requires a great deal of training, common sense, fortitude & bravery. In order to attract a qualified candidate base you need to pay a vialble salary and benefits. The city does not want to make that promise because of the ramifications to the other unions. So be it, you get what you pay for.
After reading some of the comments made here, I am happy that I took my pension and ran. For those that have shown their concern & support I truly appreciate it and hope that things turn around. If the economy tanks it will not take long for the 1970's & 80's to return. God bless.
what I claim is that the UNIONS and the MEDIA play up the $28K salary as if that is ALL they earn, poor cops...they have it so bad...how can they live on $28,000. The fact remains that they DON'T live on $28,000..yet all you hear is $28,000.
Yea, if the media were to tell the truth, they would focus on a top pay of 60K and point out how the other PD's in the area pay 80K+. But then again, the young kids interested in becoming cops already know this. Over this past summer, Suffolk PD (Top Pay 105K) went to Brownsville of all places and set up a recruiting table. THEY WERE MOBBED BY APPLICANTS!!!! This is THE most violent area in the city--minority, poor, supposedly the epitome of people that hate cops, and they couldn't get enough of these Suffolk Recruiters--do ya think the 105K top pay MAYBE had something to do with that LOL
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I do blame alot of the problems on the Unions..if you think an arbitrator came up with the new pay scale for recruits and senior officers you are not aware of how it went down. It was the Unions that proposed this solution, and the city accepted DURING arbitration. It was not the arbitrator in any way that proposed this....feel free to do your homework.
The city demanded that the PBA "pay for its own raise," and this is how it was done. It's not like the PBA was like "PLEASE, we REALLY WANT TO PAY FOR OUR OWN RAISE! AW C'MON, PRETTY PLEASE."
NYC cops make about 25% less than these other PD's in our area, and the city is offering a total of 6% in raises over two yrs. It is the city that doesn't want to pay a competitive wage. You want homework? Find me the city proposal over the last 10 yrs that would get the salary of a NYC cop into the competitive range. ALL OF THEIR PROPOSALS OVER THIS TIME NEVER EVEN CAME CLOSE TO CLOSING THE PAY GAP!!!! NONE OF THEM!!!
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I do not doubt at all that people are telling their friends/kids not to join the force...I would tell my kid the same thing
Yea, but those same people are saying "join the Nassau PD, Suffolk PD, PAPD, Westchester PD, Yonkers, become a cop in Fla. or even CT or NYS Troopers" and the list goes on and on. That is why those other jobs don't have personnel problems like NYC
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It is also clear that other counties are a big draw for "good" cops because of the entire package, salary, environment , etc....not just because of salary. The city can't compete with Nassau and Suffolk county anymore than it can compete with any other state or county in the country...it is completely different.
The city could compete with them b/c the city has more assignments than those smaller PD's do. Many of the cops out there spend their whole career on uniform patrol--and for that salary, it's worth it. BUt many guys would join the NYPD for a little less money b/c they could get into Investigative assignments. Also, there are more promotion opportunities in the city. Again, a SMALL pay gap would not be noticeable, but a large pay gap, where the NYPD salary isn't even in the ballpark of salaries--that's too much money to make the NYPD a reasonable option.
Baylover..it took me a second to figure out that GWAC was me....I will keep on the look out for this new moniker. I did not say that ALL cops were phukups..lets be serious. Clearly that is not the case...but being from Mott Haven does not mean I was schooled in Mott Haven....you would be surprised where I was schooled. I don't doubt that you went to the academy with people from LI, UPstate, or wherever...but that does not mean they are not phukups..NYC does not have the market cornered on phukups. Furthermore..I do not doubt some left college before graduating to become cops..and some left "promising" careers, or changed careers midstream...but agian...this does not mean they are NOT phukups!
The fact remains...that the profession DOES NOT attract the elite, but in fact is KNOWN for attracting the blue collar/uneducated IRISH of years past, the poor PRs and African Americans looking to enter the middle class, as well as the Italians looking to solidify their place amongst the city's connected. The cops of today are not the "noble"....maybe some are..but we are speaking of the MAJORITY...and they are most certainly not educated, intelligent, or the visionaries of our society. I am not knocking these brave young and men and women..but bravery and opportunists are NOT the academic achievers, entreprenuers, or mover/shakers of our society.
I do agree that the city deserves a professional police force..but when you source your police force from the BOTTOM you will only get the BOTTOM. They are not seeking a professional, educated, respectful, elite police force...they want a bunch of brutes that can, for the most part, keep these thugs/ghetto hoodlums in line, so that our society can function and progress. They do not recruit in the elite institutions, have no affiliations with elite instiutions of any kind in fact..however they have a HUGE presence in the various abysmal public schools and horrendous community colleges. So what are you talking about noble?
Regarding your "I am happy I took my pension and ran" comment....it is no surprise. That seems to be the ONLY reason why cops are taking the jobs these days..theya re biding their time until they get their pension and then run...thanks for confirming that.
SouthQueens...we are agreeing on the same things. We all understand that Nassau/Suffolk county pay more and have better working conditions/environment. You are beating a dead horse..but that is with EVERY PROFESSION. Guess what....if you want to work in the investment industry..you don't spend your time in Miami...you go to MANHATTAN....you are into pharmacueticals? Take yourself to NJ. You want to get paid well for being a cop..take yourself to LI....WE KNOW THIS. Miami cannot compete with Investment Banking against MAnhattan anymore than the police force in NYC can compete with LI because IT IS BETTER ALL AROUND. NOBODY ARGUES THIS.
I don't doubt that people tell their friends/kids to join the Nassau PD..would't you tell your kids that? It pays more and is a WAY BETTER environment! If my kid wanted to be a RE guy...I would send him to a major city like NYC/Chicage..etc..not Memphis Tenn....we get it. NYC will not compete with these other counties so let it go...and yes they will recruit here because they have the advantages....thats life. NYC has ALWAYS suffered from this....and it will continue.
If you think NYC can compete with that you are crazy. The pay is LOWER, the work is horrendous, the environment is painful, the bureacracy is 10 foot deep, and the people suck. There is no glamor for working in NYC, nor is there any advantage UNLESS YOU ARE ALREADY CONNECTED. So increasing the salary will not change anything..because at the end of the day it really is not the salary..it is EVERYTHING ELSE. They deal with everythign that is horrendous with this city..and all the money in the world is STILL going to attract the BOTTOM or dysfunctional.
And FOPT65..you are spot on. They sold the new recruits out so that the senior guys can get fatter and laugh all the way to the back. They sold themselves out but try to blame everyone else.....thats the Union.
If you think NYC can compete with that you are crazy. The pay is LOWER, the work is horrendous, the environment is painful, the bureacracy is 10 foot deep, and the people suck. There is no glamor for working in NYC, nor is there any advantage UNLESS YOU ARE ALREADY CONNECTED. So increasing the salary will not change anything..because at the end of the day it really is not the salary..it is EVERYTHING ELSE. They deal with everythign that is horrendous with this city..and all the money in the world is STILL going to attract the BOTTOM or dysfunctional.
So what you are saying is that its not the sucky pay that fails to attract professional police officers but the sucky people in NYC that attract the bottom of the barrel cops? I can buy that to a certain extent. Thanks for the insight.
I am saying that yes the salary is a deterrent BUT because in THIS city you can work just about anywhere and make an equally abysmal slary, and not have to deal with all the crumby people, the bureacracy, the legal battles, the unions, and the terrible environment, there is NO need to pursue being a cop for any reasonable person. Even if the salary were bumped $20,000..in NYC this still does not compete with a huge number of jobs that these recruits would be qualified to do..and not have to deal with all the BS. It is a combination of all the OTHER equally or higher paying options, as well as all the crap that they have to deal with being a cop. At the end of the day..who really WANTS to be a cop? The ones that are least capable, in my experience, to do much of anything else....of course there are exceptions, but generally..this is spot on...and considering their skills (or lackthereof)..they do quite well...as recruits are STILL joining the force albeit in slightly lower numbers.
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