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Every top race-neutral admissions policy leads to a high percentage of Asians (e.g. see California Institute of Technology). At many Ivys like Princeton, Tale and Harvard where "holistics" are taken into account, which allows admissions to obfuscate and permits them to come up with any number of factors including race...., the percentage of Asians is lower and disproportionate to, for example, test scores.
When it comes to scholarships - who cares. It doesn't stop anyone since you can borrow the cost. Yes you end up with a horrible debt and that may deter you from accepting the offer .... but race is still right there (again, until or unless the Supreme ct. strikes it down). Its just carefully PR managed nowadays.
Every top race-neutral admissions policy leads to a high percentage of Asians (e.g. see California Institute of Technology). At many Ivys like Princeton, Tale and Harvard where "holistics" are taken into account, which allows admissions to obfuscate and permits them to come up with any number of factors including race...., the percentage of Asians is lower and disproportionate to, for example, test scores.
When it comes to scholarships - who cares. It doesn't stop anyone since you can borrow the cost. Yes you end up with a horrible debt and that may deter you from accepting the offer .... but race is still right there (again, until or unless the Supreme ct. strikes it down). Its just carefully PR managed nowadays.
The holistics are done to let in WEALTHY people who have the resources to pay for those things.
What you guys don't want to deal with is isn't beneficial for Yale, Princeton, and Harvard to let in lots of poor students and give them all these free scholarships. What would be it in for the wealthy people and what would be in it for the donors?
There would be substantial oppositions from the donor base, who has no problem with diversity so long as it is WEALTHY diversity. If a school takes in a lot of poor kids the reputation of the school goes downhill and wealthy people flee.
Take CUNY. It was much better regarded when it was heavily white and Jewish. Open enrollment came (they took in EVERYONE, including people who didn't even really know English) . Graduation rates went down, alumnae stopped contributing money, and CUNY ended up spending massive resources on remediation. CUNY COMMUNITY colleges that are full of adult immigrants have graduation rates of 11% or so.
The language issue of adult ESL learners should be deal with by the local school districts (Adult ESL is funded by the state of California and local school districts in California). NYC dumped them upon the CUNY's which is one factor that ruined the CUNY's.
My son applied and was accepted to several Catholic schools here and in Westchester, including Fordham Prep. All of the schools he applied to had a limited number of merit-based scholarships, but no, no school had race-based scholarship money! This is the assumption of many people, including a good friend of mine who really couldn't believe my son didn't get offered full tuition! All these schools have income-based financial aid, insufficient from my experience.
It's my understanding that the situation is the same at the university level.
It is more or less the same. The only people who can count on full financial aid are VETERANS. Oh you'll find a decent number of veterans at the Ivy League.
There is no advantage to being an underrepresented minority in regards to applying to elite universities. I'm Black. How much financial aid did I get for grad school? NONE. I paid for it in CASH. The only thing I could have done differently was take out student loans. I'm a straight A student.
I have not seen any evidence that underrepresented minority status makes it easier to gain admission to top universities or get financial aid. These things are HARD to do for everyone.
Google "URM elite colleges admissions". The fact that you were a URM and didn't get financial aid is not evidence that URM status does not impact the admission process. It just means that you were accepted. There were probably several straight A students that weren't accepted.
I don't think I've ever read an article or book or interview that claimed that URM did NOT give applicants an advantage in applying to most elite schools. Since our kids will be legacies at two Ivies, and our hope is that they will be able to attend one of those institutions, I'm particularly interested in how those schools evaluate applicants. There are a few "hooks" that improve your chances to varying degrees. Those hooks include legacy, development (donations), elite talent and yes, URM status.
Google "URM elite colleges admissions". The fact that you were a URM and didn't get financial aid is not evidence that URM status does not impact the admission process. It just means that you were accepted. There were probably several straight A students that weren't accepted.
I don't think I've ever read an article or book or interview that claimed that URM did NOT give applicants an advantage in applying to most elite schools. Since our kids will be legacies at two Ivies, and our hope is that they will be able to attend one of those institutions, I'm particularly interested in how those schools evaluate applicants. There are a few "hooks" that improve your chances to varying degrees. Those hooks include legacy, development (donations), elite talent and yes, URM status.
So if being an URM is such an advantage, then why are they URM? It doesn't make sense. The vast majority of Blacks and Hispanics will not be accepted into an Ivy League university or other top school, same as the vast majority of whites and asians. Most of all races can't pay for it and won't even apply.
By the time I got admitted to grad school I had a pretty good working resume, and I had other things going on professionally.
I don't have to google elite college admissions when I am at an elite institution.
Sure your kids will be able to attend those Ivies provided they are good candidates and you and your spouse GENEROUSLY DONATED.
Btw I've known many URM who got REJECTED when they applied to top universities. Admission committees are pretty critical.
There is no advantage to being an underrepresented minority in regards to applying to elite universities. I'm Black. How much financial aid did I get for grad school? NONE. I paid for it in CASH. The only thing I could have done differently was take out student loans. I'm a straight A student.
I have not seen any evidence that underrepresented minority status makes it easier to gain admission to top universities or get financial aid. These things are HARD to do for everyone.
The entire point of top universities is to be mostly wealthy people, so for obvious reasons they are going to mostly let in well to do with with GOOD academic backgrounds. There's no reason for them to allow underrepresented people in who aren't prepared, because the university will get nothing from it. They need to either let in wealthy people and/or people who show evidence of exceptional talent (these people will be able to donate to the university and their success will be a part of the university's brand).
Re: Asians, there are plenty of WEALTHY ASIANS and ASIAN AMERICANS in the Ivy League. The Ivy League is not the welfare office or the charity organization, so of course they are not going to let in lots of poor people even if they have perfect SAT scores. Why is this hard to understand?
People go to the Ivy League precisely because they know it's a good place to network with RICH people.
Grad studies in the Ivy League are another ballgame altogether. When people talk about Ivy League, they're often referring to undergrad; after all, most people don't go to grad school and never need to. Your knowledge seems to be based on the more stringent grad requirements of the schools; and indeed research is their focus so it's going to be more stringent and less generous.
I was wondering how many languages you know how to say Rhinoceros in?
It's much harder to retain little-used vocabulary in a second language. Your statement shows that you have little knowledge about the subject.
You fail to realize folks like me like to pull on loose threads. Corporate American is not school.
For instance I had a cyber security "expert" at a meeting pitching something. He said ask me anything about Cyber our company is well positioned.
I asked him why is it called Cyber Security. He went all over place. Said it is Security over Cyber and Cyber is like the Cloud/Web. I then asked but where does word cyber come from.
I quickly explained the first California law that was first in nation to make theft over Internet a crime. The lawmaker did not know what to call it and referenced Cyborgs and a cyborg (short for "cybernetic organism") is a being with both organic and biomechatronic body parts.
Hence a human using a machine to hack into a database is a Cyber Security crime.
Folks do it all the time. Look at folks running for office, reporters in an audience. Those loose threads will undo all your knowledge.
And actually when I was in Germany someone did it to me on a German word which I quickly said since I won both WWI and WWII so no reason for folks speaking German at all. Until you win a war who cares. Next Question.
Grad studies in the Ivy League are another ballgame altogether. When people talk about Ivy League, they're often referring to undergrad; after all, most people don't go to grad school and never need to. Your knowledge seems to be based on the more stringent grad requirements of the schools; and indeed research is their focus so it's going to be more stringent and less generous.
The undergraduate programs at the Ivy League all generally require GRAD school with a FEW EXCEPTIONS.
The vast majority of notable Ivy Leaguers you've heard of have graduate and/or professional degrees from the Ivy League or other top schools. The politicians or judges have Ivy League law degrees, and the CEOs have Ivy League MBA degrees. The notable scholars have Ivy League or other top phds or MA's. The artists have Ivy League MFA's.
For poor people who don't have spectacular undergraduate records (along with research, letters of recommendation from quality people in academia or in the workforce) or much in the way of financial resources, an Ivy League bachelors can be a big cut off.
But back to undergraduate, I knew a person who has an English BA from Cornell who had written articles published by the New York Times when he was in high school. So even undergraduate is extremely competitive and relevant high school internships,volunteer programs, and activities out of school can help tremendously.
This is your fixation, not mine. I'm not getting into a discussion of inherent intellectual superiority/inferiority among races.
Yeah this dude is obviously trying to imply that Asians are inherently superior or something. It's enough enough to him that we're essentially praising the Asian work ethic, we must accept Asians as being innately superior?
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Originally Posted by bumblebyz
Then don't get into fixations with your own bias due to Asians doing well academically. I'm sure you and your husband would be pissed if they start adding new criterias in professional sports that have nothing to do with sports. I would view it as racist, but perhaps many whites won't just like many non-Asians don't find anything wrong with Asian implicit quotas which I totally understand. Every one is just trying everything they can to better themselves and if it comes at the detriment of any group but themselves so what. This is why non-blacks don't give a damn about stop and frisk. Everyone knew that it came at the detriment of some innocent people, but at the end of the day if it advanced everyone else's perceived safety so what.
Actually, plenty of non blacks are against stop and frisk, myself being one of tbem.
So if being an URM is such an advantage, then why are they URM? It doesn't make sense. The vast majority of Blacks and Hispanics will not be accepted into an Ivy League university or other top school, same as the vast majority of whites and asians.
They are URM because the population is smaller. If there are 3000 over-represented minorities with qualified credentials, but only 50 underrepresented minorities with equivalent credentials, a much larger percentage of the underrepresented minorities will be accepted in order to admit a diverse class.
There are about 20 URM students admitted to Stuyvesant and about 680 Asians. Who do you think is going to have an easier time standing out to Ivy admission committees? I'll bet that most of those URM will be going to Ivy+ schools, while a far lower percentage of the Asian students will.
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Originally Posted by NyWriterdude
I don't have to google elite college admissions when I am at an elite.
...
Btw I've known many URM who got REJECTED when they applied to top universities. Admission committees are pretty critical.
Elite or not, my education taught me to consider evidence, even if it doesn't align with my own particular experience. I've read several articles and books (that would probably show up in that search) that claim that race does impact admissions, and if you can show me an article that claims otherwise, I would be happy to read it.
Additionally, the fact that URMs have been rejected is not, by itself, evidence that there is no advantage.
You would need to consider a much larger dataset, like the Princeton study referenced in this article that claims that being African American results in an SAT "bonus" of 230 points, being Hispanic results in a bonus of 185 points, and being Asian American results in a penalty of 50 points. Put another way Asian-Americans need to score 280 points higher on the SAT to offset the additional consideration that another candidate may receive due to race.
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