Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I'd also like to say that many NYC'ers who earn "middle class" wages aren't middle class when you take their net worth (mostly housing) into account. Many NYC'ers are upper middle class even if they don't want to admit it. There are many who inherited property in desirable neighborhoods or bought before the huge run up in prices (before the mid 2000's).
At my last job there was a gentleman from maintenance who was making around $40k/year. His wife worked as a home health aide so she was probably making $30K max. However, they bought a corner property in Marine Park for a little under $500K (when he bought his house he was making around $65k/year) and now it's worth somewhere around $1.5MM. If you just look at their wages, they're middle class. If you're financially literate, you realize they're not really middle class at all.
Let me put this another way (and I have seen so many examples of this). There are people who've inherited property in NYC. Even if they, as a household, make $70K but have no rent or mortgage (just property taxes + utility bills), they're not middle class because their spending power is on par with that of the upper middle class.
Most people exclude housing from purchasing power given it is both shelter and illiquid asset. For running any business or household cash flow tends to matter more than any perceived wealth you might have as it can lead to liquidity shortfall (bankruptcy). If you are cash poor, you will end up finding yourself living as a poor person. It happen to me twice, when I bought a house and when I was a graduate student.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wawaweewa
NYC has a high COL because of housing costs. If you remove that, it's no more expensive than any other part of the US. In fact, in many ways it's cheaper.
Besides housing cost, childcare and food is a lot more expensive in NYC. You can look it up objectively by using cost of living index.
Most people exclude housing from purchasing power given it is both shelter and illiquid asset. For running any business or household cash flow tends to matter more than any perceived wealth you might have as it can lead to liquidity shortfall (bankruptcy). If you are cash poor, you will end up finding yourself living as a poor person. It happen to me twice, when I bought a house and when I was a graduate student.
Besides housing cost, childcare and food is a lot more expensive in NYC. You can look it up objectively by using cost of living index.
I'll give you childcare costs, but food isn't that outrageous here. I shop organic and even I know where to get nice deals. Most store brands these days offer pretty decent organic options (Whole Foods, Target and Costco come to mind).
Sunset Park has been doing so for a while. The good deals are already gone and have been for several years now. There's pressure from parts north of extremely gentrified Brooklyn while the stable and striving Mexican and Chinese communities have been pushing at the rest of the area. It's already "gentrified" in the sense that property values are up and being a desirable neighborhood.
Seems like a lot of folks are unaware of Industry City and the threat it poses for the entire borough and even city. Industry city is pretty much an ignition for tech startups and if all goes well more and more investors will look to dump their dirty laundered money into the next San Francisco.
I'll give you childcare costs, but food isn't that outrageous here. I shop organic and even I know where to get nice deals. Most store brands these days offer pretty decent organic options (Whole Foods, Target and Costco come to mind).
Having high housing cost transfers over to the price of food. Unless the business owns the land it is under, most restaurants mark up the cost (paying $6-$10 for a salad for most transplants is seen as unreasonable). In addition, the organic selection in NYC is mediocre at best if you live closer to the equator where it year round good weather the fruits are much more fresh and less seasonal. In NYC, I refuse to buy fruits that I don't plan to eat immediately because by the time the fruits arrive to NYC they are already close to expiration.
Having high housing cost transfers over to the price of food. Unless the business owns the land it is under, most restaurants mark up the cost (paying $6-$10 for a salad for most transplants is seen as unreasonable). In addition, the organic selection in NYC is mediocre at best if you live closer to the equator where it year round good weather the fruits are much more fresh and less seasonal. In NYC, I refuse to buy fruits that I don't plan to eat immediately because by the time the fruits arrive to NYC they are already close to expiration.
Of course it does, but let's not act like decent quality food can't be had at reasonable prices, especially when cooking at home. Hey, I'm used to amazing food at very good prices having lived in Italy and elsewhere, but even there things like drinks especially in big cities like Rome, Milan and Florence were marked up much higher than smaller cities like Bologna in Emilia-Romagna, or Palermo in Sicily, or even Naples in Campania. I think people accept that living in New York, things will be more expensive. You also talk about food closer to the equator, which is true, but wages and housing costs are also much lower there, so of course food is considerably cheaper.
Salads here are always overpriced. The only time I buy them out is if I'm desperate and don't care about the cost, but most of the time, I buy all of the items from Whole Foods (all organic, and in season where possible) and make my own at home. Things like organic cherry tomatoes, organic arugula, etc. hold up well, and you can put your salad dressing in a small little container and then assemble everything later. I'm a big fan of organic honey crisp apples. The ones from Washington have amazing flavor and are very juicy. I slice up some and add them to my salads with a few other ingredients and it makes for an amazing salad at a very good price.
Most people exclude housing from purchasing power given it is both shelter and illiquid asset. For running any business or household cash flow tends to matter more than any perceived wealth you might have as it can lead to liquidity shortfall (bankruptcy). If you are cash poor, you will end up finding yourself living as a poor person. It happen to me twice, when I bought a house and when I was a graduate student.
Besides housing cost, childcare and food is a lot more expensive in NYC. You can look it up objectively by using cost of living index.
Firstly, food is in no way more expensive since in NYC unless you're referring to moderate - expensive restaurants. Food doesn't equal restaurants. Food = groceries.
Childcare isn't that much more expensive than childcare in the rest of the country. Childcare is relatively expensive everywhere.
In regards to your argument regarding housing it is true in certain cases but it's not true for the plurality of homeowners in that situation. Especially for those who've inherited a house, received a gift for a substantial down payment, or bought their house 20-30 years ago.
I don't think eating out is particularly expensive compared to other cities. I've been to Philly, DC, Boston, Vegas, and did not find the restaurants there to be cheaper.
Mexican food is more expensive, though. Taco trucks in California and Texas tend to charge less than 2 dollars per taco from what I hear. While in New York they cost $2.50-$3.00 per taco
A household income of $100,000 in NYC is not considered upper middle class.
It is solidly middle class. Especially for a family with kids. Bordering on working class in NYC.
That's definitely not working class, that's twice the average HHI
Sunset Park doesn't have close to the amount of parkland as Bay Ridge. There are also businesses catering to kids, such as dance academies or little league.
BTW...there are many non-white family neighborhoods in NYC. It is racist of you to believe otherwise.
Of course there are nonwhite family neighborhoods, that's my point
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoshanarose
Yes for sure, I think many nowadays would prefer to live in Sunset Park rather than Bay Ridge and I daresay it's not that much cheaper than Bay Ridge anymore (if it all?) as a result.
As far as rents go, there's not a big disparity anymore
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
