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motthaven, I guess we're both using the same sliding scale - maybe I'm saying slide it a little more to the right and you might be saying, let's move a little to the left. Yes, money alone won't solve the issues. There are hoodlums wearing suits on Wall Street, as the world has sadly come to realize. Crooks who have robbed corporations and shareholders to the hilt and hurt entire industries and economies.
So yes, money alone is not the answer. I'm saying offer good package SIMULTANEOUSLY with cleaning house and implementing sensitivity and civilty training to teach those who need to be taught so that a badge and a gun does not make you Wyatt Earp.
I can't stand a lot of police..but I agree that the new payscale of 35k is nada. Although I was talking to some officers the other day..and their benefits are the BOMB.
My opinion. Raise the starting salary to 45-50k (AT LEAST)..and just hire less lazy *****es. Make it harder to get into the police force. Only take quality individuals. There are way too many losers who can easily get jobs as police.
Miles...I agree that we should clearly be weeding out the good from the bad..which has nothing to do with money. I am all for paying cops more money..but not until they get their act together. The same way I am giving Public Schools more money..but not until they fix all the problems there too. ....so I repeat...more money thrown at a problem does not solve anything.
This is putting the cart before the horse: In order to fix and improve any agency/business, you have to hire the personnel that can help you fix and improve the agency/business. Unfortunatley you can't attract those people with an uncompetitive salary, at least not in the numbers you need, b/c the pay is unattractive and your stuck having to hire the underqualified and unqualified applicants just to fill the ranks OR you have to suffer the consequences of even lower manpower and police coverage.
The flip side is that once you raise the pay, the slugs are even LESS likely to leave.
The solution is to NEVER let your pay get so uncompetitive that you can't fill your ranks AND keep your standards where they should be and not have to lower them.
I can't stand a lot of police..but I agree that the new payscale of 35k is nada. Although I was talking to some officers the other day..and their benefits are the BOMB.
My opinion. Raise the starting salary to 45-50k (AT LEAST)..and just hire less lazy *****es. Make it harder to get into the police force. Only take quality individuals. There are way too many losers who can easily get jobs as police.
Page, if you could only talk to people who are in the NYPD's Applicant Processing Division, I think you would be shocked at how easy it is to be a NYC cop. The city actually calls people repeatedly trying to get them to take the job. It used to be that you had to show up for all of your appointments on time AND in a business suit--if you were late more than once or not properly attired, they bounced you off the list. BUt now the NYPD is the ones pursuing the applicants, not the other way around like it should be.
If you ever happen to run into a cop form Nassau or Suffolk or any other area PD that was former NYPD hired in the last 10 yrs, ask them the difference in those other agencies hiring practices, and the NYPD's. Again, you will be shocked.
The reality is that when the pay was "good" all those years ago...the problems in the police force were in fact far worse and entrenched. So lets not try to rewrite history here.... Throwing more money at the force doesn't change anything..and it never will....until the culture changes from the top down...we will be having the same conversation about "cops assaulting civilians" in 2018, 2028....when does it end? The "good" pay back then did not solve anything or make things better in the dept....and neither what you believe is a "good" salary today. It is the massive beauracracy, dysfunction, and chaotic environment that will keep the force in this decaying state.... The NYPD has all the high paid big wigs and "experienced" leaders it needs to implement the changes necessary...but it does not serve their own interests. Until that culture changes...nothing will change in the force...that's the ONLY solution.
The reality is that when the pay was "good" all those years ago...the problems in the police force were in fact far worse and entrenched. So lets not try to rewrite history here.... Throwing more money at the force doesn't change anything..and it never will....until the culture changes from the top down...we will be having the same conversation about "cops assaulting civilians" in 2018, 2028....when does it end? The "good" pay back then did not solve anything or make things better in the dept....and neither what you believe is a "good" salary today. It is the massive beauracracy, dysfunction, and chaotic environment that will keep the force in this decaying state.... The NYPD has all the high paid big wigs and "experienced" leaders it needs to implement the changes necessary...but it does not serve their own interests. Until that culture changes...nothing will change in the force...that's the ONLY solution.
Paying more money means you can attract better applicants--it's how the business community operates and it's why the better paid suburban dept's have FAR fewer turnover and problems than the NYPD AND IN FACT they employ MANY former NYPD who give them virtually NO CORRUPTION PROBLEMS!!!
The reason the NYPD had a lot of corruption in the 70's and 80's was b/c of illegal drugs being new to America and Law Enforcement on such a large scale. MANY police dept's had similiar corruption for the same reasons.
Eventually, procedures were put into place to account for narcotics that were seized and random integrity tests started to be conducted to see if cops would take the bait, whereas before these tests were not conducted.
Today, the other area dept's RARELY make the news for police corruption, but the NYPD still has problems, although not as prevalent as 20-30 yrs ago. This is mostly due to hiring standards being lower and the low pay making NYC cops more susceptible to temptation. Also, the NYPD has hired more than its share of people with arrest records and gang members over the past 10 yrs, and this type of police applicants are obviously more prone to misconduct.
Hopefully this new raise will address these problems.
So what you are saying is the "good" salaries back then meant nothing, and it as in fact illegal drugs. Which proves my point...it is NOT the salaries...although I disagree....you are being extremely disingenious and or outright lying if you are actually going to sit here and say alot of the corruption was due to drugs. It was in fact ingrained/permitted racism, the mob, the perverse culture (that continues today), lack of effective leadership (sound familiar?), ineffective policies/practices (that sounds familiar too), no effective accountability for brutality/illegal behavior, AND drugs too. You enjoy rewriting history. And again...standards were lowered because NOBODY WANTS TO WORK THERE..the culture is horrendous...well before salaries became "uncompetitive." It was not the salaries that drove people away....people wised up and said no to the crap the NYPD was offering..who wants to deal with that sick culture? The rampant nepotisim, favortism, beauracracy, distrust among officers and departments, lack of teamwork, the list goes on and on...the salary was the final straw but the real problems inside the force is what caused its demise..NOT the salary. The sick culture continues today...which is why many cops do their 20 years and get the heck out....even though they are making good wages, especially for cops who came in with a HS GED/Diploma...they run when they hit those 20 years. Until the culture changes...the NYPD will rot.
How about a three-pronged approach? We increase compensation packages as was just now approved, we increase educational requirements to include a two year degree PLUS an extended curriculum from the present officer training before graduation from the academy, and we weed out the bad guys, the guys with the criminal background and henceforth refuse to accept this lower quality recruit.
We emphasize all three elements. It seems pretty clear that no one approach will solve the problem. In life very rarely is there a single-step solution to mammoth problems.
How about a three-pronged approach? We increase compensation packages as was just now approved, we increase educational requirements to include a two year degree PLUS an extended curriculum from the present officer training before graduation from the academy, and we weed out the bad guys, the guys with the criminal background and henceforth refuse to accept this lower quality recruit.
We emphasize all three elements. It seems pretty clear that no one approach will solve the problem. In life very rarely is there a single-step solution to mammoth problems.
Well said, Miles! It's very difficult to overahul a a system as complex and diverse as the NYPD without disrupting current levels of service, but it can be done in stages, and the first stage is in place with the higher salaries.
Last edited by bmwguydc; 08-22-2008 at 12:07 PM..
Reason: Typo
Yeah HOW ABOUT CHANGING THE CULTURE OF THE POLICE FORCE? That is the most important factor and the one you left out! Until that changes from the top down....everything else will be pointless. The lack of accountability, abuse of power, and Union rhetoric to defend criminal behavior is appalling and poisons everything. When that changes, and only when that changes, can the department move forward.
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