Am I being unreasonable about my addiction? (senior, husband, member)

[KathrynAragon]

Originally Posted by Three Wolves In Snow

It is YOUR choice if you are going to accept and respect them for who they are. It is YOUR fault if you don't and then continue to expect things. You talk about boundaries...it's pretty evident you don't know anything about boundaries if you keep expecting things from people.

You're the one who said it. Did anyone else here call you suicidal? No, you did.

Oh brother. I think a sense of humor is practically a REQUIRED TRAIT for living well. I thought it was obvious that I was being facetious when I made that comment - but apparently not. I WAS NOT BEING SERIOUS about being suicidal - in fact, I said something along the lines of "Good grief, it's not like I'm distraught or suicidal about this." That's not clearly facetious? Sheeze!

So what you are saying is that you expect them to live life the way YOU see fit, not how they see fit. And therein lies your problem.

No. What I am saying is that ALL relationships, from casual to business to friendships to intimate, have some expectations attached. That doesn't mean that LOVE is conditional - it means that the parameters of the relationships are defined in some manner by the mutual expectations.

My frustration with my parents stems from their lopsided expectations. In other words, they expect a lot from me and yet seem unwilling to reciprocate. This is a sign of disrespect. It doesn't mean I don't love them, or attach conditions to my loyalty, but it does mean that I have to step back and re assess what they expect from me when they are being so blatantly unbalanced in their approach.

Which is more realistic? Letting other people conduct their lives how they want or being so upset about a forgotten Kindle that you've written pages and pages and pages about it?

Oh my gosh. You STILL think it's about the Kindle.

They can conduct their lives any way they want - and they do. I don't interfere with their lifestyle or their choices. I made a mistake when I asked them to do a very small favor for me - one that seemed completely reasonable at the time. This doesn't mean that I'm asking them to alter their lifestyle - all it means is that I asked them to alter five minutes of their life. Big difference.

You would be dismayed if a customer did not remove their sunglasses when walking in to the bank? Dismayed?!

That is not what I said. I gave several different adjectives which could be applied to several different scenarios that I also mentioned. You're really stretching here.

I would be FIRM with a customer who came into the bank and refused to remove their sunglasses. My expectation in our business relationship would be that they remove their sunglasses, per bank policy. In other words, that's my parameter and my expectation. In return, they expect me to behave professionally and responsibly with their money. Those are the expectations of our relationship.

It doesn't matter what you think of it, it is THEIR reason. You are expecting them to do what you want, to hell with what they think. You're now hurt. That's your fault.

I'm not buying this, because their "reason" was BS. I clearly stated that just this past week, after they told me that they couldn't pick up that Kindle because "they don't drive on interstate highways and asking them to do so was asking them to compromise their values" they jumped right on an interstate highway to and from Hot Springs. But of course, that was something THEY wanted to do.

And I already knew they drove on interstate highways, so as soon as they said it, my BS monitor went off like crazy. And it was a correct reading by the way.

Their BS hurts me when it's directed at me. They lied to me. That hurts. Are you honestly saying that when loved ones lie to you, it doesn't hurt or frustrate you? Are you honestly saying that if their lies and attempts at emotional manipulation cause you negative feelings, that's YOUR fault and not THEIR fault? Are you absolving them of any responsibility?

So you keep points? "I've done this and that, you now should do this for me." Really?! Is that really how you live? REALLY?!!

No, I don't keep points. Let's put some reality on this though. Are you saying that if you had a family member who asked you REPEATEDLY to do things like take them to the doctor, pick things up on the way to the house, do work projects around their house, review legal contracts, accompany them to meetings with their attorney and financial advisors, etc - and all this took place several hours from your home so over the years you took vacation time, sick time, etc to do this for them, that you wouldn't be a bit put out if they 1) didn't pay you for things you picked up for them at the store, 2) gave things to and did favors for other family members who actually do nothing for them and 3) refused, with a BLATANT LIE, to do the SMALLEST thing you asked of them once in twenty years?

Are you saying that you wouldn't notice, and be peeved by, the discrepency in their "values" and the lack of respect they have toward the relationship?

If you have any idea of boundaries, you would probably re assess your interaction with these people - and usually, with close family members, this re assessment is emotionally painful and a bit difficult.

If that's called "keeping points" then I'm guilty as charged. But that's not how I see it at all.

I didn't say your request was unreasonable. It's not unreasonable. Your REACTION to their answer is what is unreasonable.

My reaction would be unreasonable if it was truly "just about the Kindle." My reaction is not unreasonable considering that I need to plan how to define my relationship with my parents as they enter their elderly years. I will be the only sibling actively involved with them, and I feel that responsibility bearing down on me. Their already-selfish outlook on life seems to be becoming worse, and their demands more petulant. This is going to be difficult terrain to travel over, and I am REASONABLY concerned about this, and emotionally I need to work through some issues in order for all of us to work together as a family, After all, I do LOVE my parents very much, and I believe they love me too. I have to get my head around how to deal with them as they age.

Didn't realize I needed a secret password to respond to a post made on a public forum. If you don't want answers that don't coddle you, don't put it out there on a public forum.

Sorry, but this is a ridiculous statement. I've made it very clear that I am interested in ALL responses, even the ones I disagree with. That being said, you seem irritated by my responses. My point was, if this thread or my responses irritate you, don't stress yourself out by reading it. But I suspect that you rather enjoy debating - and I can understand that, as I do also.

You're not bothering me and I'm not bothering you apparently - so carry on as you see fit. I'll do the same.

As for helping, see my answer above. You don't see it that way because I'm not saying, "OMG, you are so right! Your parents are jerks!" That's the ONLY reason you have any issue with what I'm saying. If you were to take a step back, get out of this emotionally, you would see that what I have said and others have said actually IS helpful, you just don't want to hear the harsh truth.

If I wasn't interested in your responses, and the varied responses of others, I simply wouldn't read them. But don't confuse my disagreement with your assessment for animosity or a refusal to accept reality. I disagree with much of what you've said, and I've clearly laid out WHY.

As for "harsh truth" - if this is as harsh as truth gets, bring it on! Of course, I may not even agree that what you're saying IS true, and if so, I will definitely let you know when I disagree. Maybe what I'm saying is the truth. Maybe there's some truth to what both of us are saying. I would bet that's the case.

But you're still here talking about it. Don't even bother with, "that's because people are responding". If you were truly over it, you would have just moved on, deleted the thread or said so and not continued to give three pages of reasons why you think your parents are jerks.

You can disagree with me or judge my motives all you like. However, when it's all said and done, you do not know what my motivations are - you can only guess.

I enjoy discussing interpersonal relationships, and am an active member of this forum who will discuss and debate any number of topics with great gusto, and with page after page of responses, even over things like whether pinto beans can be used to make red beans and rice! I like the written word, and I love indepth discussions with people on a wide variety of topics. This topic just happens to be more personal to me than, say, whether or not East Texas is culturally part of the Deep South (another very active thread with lots of debate back and forth).

Who cares. For them, that's what they chose. They didn't want to drive on the interstate for your Kindle. They will drive on the interstate for a house. Oh well! That's who they are! You either learn to accept that, who they are, or you don't. That is the key in learning not to expect things from other people.

If you cannot accept that your parents are like this, then cut them off. You either respect and accept and do not expect anything or you don't accept or respect and you create more threads like this in the future.

Who cares? I care. I care when I am involved with them on a daily basis, and as their needs increase over time. The more they rely on me, the more I am in danger of being disrespected and frankly, abused - and by people who are absolutely OBLIVIOUS to their behavior. I don't think I am wrong to point out their inconsistencies from time to time.

It's not an all or nothing thing with anyone, in any relationship. I don't think we have to take the position of "they can act anyway they want to and if I don't like it, I can cut them off entirely." Frankly, I think that's ridiculous.

For instance, my husband smokes. He smoked when I met him, and I accepted that and have never pressured him to quit, even though I would LOVE for him to quit.

However, he cannot smoke in my car. It is MY CAR and he knows and has accepted that boundary. If he suddenly decided to light up in my car, do I have two options - either allow it or divorce him? No, I think I have another option, which is to remind him of my EXPECTATIONS and then enforce those expectations.

He has also agreed not to smoke in the house - which I think is a very nice gesture on his part. If he started smoking in the house (that we are going to sell this next year - so besides the dangers of second hand smoke, I don't want a house reeking of cigarette smoke when we put it on the market), using your logic I would just accept it, or cut him off.

It would be a matter of respect for the boundaries that he agreed to, correct? Reasonable boundaries.

My parents would TELL you that they would do small favors for me - or large favors for that matter. They would also tell you that they never would lie to me, or put some sort of guilt trip on me. In theory, those are the terms we've agreed to in our relationship - that we help each other out and that we are honest with each other. In practice however, they often don't hold up their end of the relationship.

Does that mean I cut them out of my life? I don't feel that it's that bleak. I DO see some improvement with them when I call their hand on things. I AM going to point out to them that they are inconsistent, and if the past is any indicator of the future, they may show some improvement. If not - oh well, they are still my parents, and I will just have to deal with their insensitivity and selfishness if I want to have any sort of relationship with them - which I do.

So - I am sure I am in for more frustration over the next few years - just as they knew they were in for frustration when they had kids. I don't expect perfection from them - but I'm also not going to bottle up my frustrations.

I'm sure I'll write more threads like this in the future. I don't know that that's a bad thing. Like a good friend of mine told me one time, I'll probably never develop an ulcer because I don't internalize stress!

[exscapegoat]

Originally Posted by Three Wolves In Snow

Certainly, learning "Never expect anything from anybody" is not something one gets in 5 minutes. Most people repel against that, they don't want to hear it because they don't understand it. When they do finally understand it, life is a WHOLE lot less stressful.

I know it's not about the Kindle. I know it's about her parents not wanting to do this small favor. As I have said, twice now, this makes three times, the request itself was NOT unreasonable. It's how she reacted to their answer that was.

Their reaction about principles is just that...theirs. Accept it or move on. It really does come down to that.

I agree it does get less stressful once we get to the point where we can accept that. For the 3 years I was in civil, but distant limited contact with my mother, it was a lot less stress because I learned to stop expecting anything from her. And I did what I needed to in order to protect and take care of myself.

[KathrynAragon]

Originally Posted by exscapegoat

Boundaries aren't an overnight process, particularly for people who've been raised to do their parents' bidding. Sounds like Kathryn's making progress on it. I first started setting boundaries with my mother when I was in my 20s. It took me about 2 decades to realize she wasn't going to respect them and trample on them.

It's easy for me now to say, "set boundaries and enforce them" But it took me a couple of decades to really understand it. In my case, my mother would switch to nice mode to suck me back in. And I fell for it repeatedly because "life's short", "she's family", I wanted to keep the peace. I wish I'd caught on quicker, but I feel it's better late than never. Some people manage to figure out boundaries & enforcing them right off the bat. I wish I'd been one. But I can empathize with what Kathryn's going through because of my own experience.

This isn't about the Kindle anymore than my mother falling out with her cousin Mimi was about the beach chair. It's the underlying behavior which is the problem. I'd be pretty hurt too if my parents who I'd done things for wouldn't go a short distance out of their way on the interstate and then followed that up with a long interstate trip right after. It's normal to be hurt in that situation. What I think is good about it is Kathryn is using the hurt as a wake up call to re-examine the relationship with her parents.

And let's not forget, she said she'd go get it herself after they refused. Even if her tone was martyrish (don't know if was or wasn't), their reaction about principles, etc. was way over the top.

You are right in pointing out that establishing boundaries is an ongoing process. In fact, we wouldn't have a Defense Department if all we had to do was establish boundaries and then walk away and expect them to be respected!

I have established boundaries with my parents in the past, with some heartening success. They are not evil people - they are oblivious people who are on autopilot and who have lived a very secluded and self sufficient life up to this point - where over time it has become possible for them to become VERY self-centered. My dad has owned his own solitary consulting business for decades, and my mother has never had to work outside the home. They have been independently wealthy for the past 30 or so years. Their parents did not require much care when they were elderly - they, fortunately or otherwise - quickly passed on when they became ill, so there was no long term period of care and maintenance involved. They taught us kids to be self reliant, so consequently my brother and I moved out at ages 17 and 19. They did not pay for our college or any living expenses. The only sibling they've coddled has been my youngest brother - with disastrous results. And he lives 6 hours away from them so even his demands have not been time consuming for them.

When I have pointed out their inconsistencies with my brother -and the subsequent stress that it's caused in THEIR lives - they have listened to some extent, and actually applied some of my advice about establishing healthy boundaries, in their relationship with him. Same with some other situations with close family - since they are wealthy, some family members over the years have tried to take advantage of them.

In other words, my parents DO sometimes listen to me. Like I've said, we don't have a combative relationship - we often enjoy each others' company. We talk on the phone together nearly every day and see each other at least a couple of days a month. For the most part we get along well.

Which is exactly WHY it is hurtful when they suddenly "forget their manners" or remind me, with their actions, of exactly why I went through the whole painful "boundary" process twenty years ago. It's a painful reminder that I can never truly relax and just enjoy my relationship with them, unlike, for instance, my relationship with my husband, who is MUCH more respectful of my personal boundaries.

[Three Wolves In Snow]

Originally Posted by KathrynAragon

Oh brother. I think a sense of humor is practically a REQUIRED TRAIT for living well. I thought it was obvious that I was being facetious when I made that comment - but apparently not. I WAS NOT BEING SERIOUS about being suicidal - in fact, I said something along the lines of "Good grief, it's not like I'm distraught or suicidal about this." That's not clearly facetious? Sheeze!

Who can tell anymore on this thread.

No. What I am saying is that ALL relationships, from casual to business to friendships to intimate, have some expectations attached. That doesn't mean that LOVE is conditional - it means that the parameters of the relationships are defined in some manner by the mutual expectations.

No. They don't. You don't get it. Maybe some day you will, but you don't right now.

My frustration with my parents stems from their lopsided expectations. In other words, they expect a lot from me and yet seem unwilling to reciprocate. This is a sign of disrespect. It doesn't mean I don't love them, or attach conditions to my loyalty, but it does mean that I have to step back and re assess what they expect from me when they are being so blatantly unbalanced in their approach.

And that is how they are. They aren't going to change so why do you go through all of this crap expecting them to change? THEY. ARE. NOT. GOING. TO. CHANGE!

Oh my gosh. You STILL think it's about the Kindle.

back at ya and another because I got it from the very beginning that it wasn't about the Kindle. Reading comprehension, using EVERYTHING that has been said, not one little sentence. Here's another:

They can conduct their lives any way they want - and they do. I don't interfere with their lifestyle or their choices. I made a mistake when I asked them to do a very small favor for me - one that seemed completely reasonable at the time. This doesn't mean that I'm asking them to alter their lifestyle - all it means is that I asked them to alter five minutes of their life. Big difference.

You say that but you don't actually act like that when you write posts like the one in the beginning or the plethora of other "example" posts. Who CARES if they treat your brother different. OH well! Is that going to change? No. So why bother with it anymore? LET it go! You are working yourself up in these posts for nothing. Nothing! Nothing is going to change. They are 70 years old, they are NOT going to change! Stop expecting them to do things you want them to do!

Alter five minutes of their life IS asking them to alter their lifestyle.

That is not what I said. I gave several different adjectives which could be applied to several different scenarios that I also mentioned. You're really stretching here.

I would be FIRM with a customer who came into the bank and refused to remove their sunglasses. My expectation in our business relationship would be that they remove their sunglasses, per bank policy. In other words, that's my parameter and my expectation. In return, they expect me to behave professionally and responsibly with their money. Those are the expectations of our relationship.

A rule and an expectation are not the same thing...thanks for missing the point.

I'm not buying this, because their "reason" was BS. I clearly stated that just this past week, after they told me that they couldn't pick up that Kindle because "they don't drive on interstate highways and asking them to do so was asking them to compromise their values" they jumped right on an interstate highway to and from Hot Springs. But of course, that was something THEY wanted to do.

It doesn't matter what you think of their reason! That's the dang point! It does not matter what you think! It's THEIR reason! End of story. Now, you can accept that, (no one said you had to LIKE it), and move on or you can continue on being all up in arms for years about the slights and injustices they have done to you. It's not healthy what you are doing.

And I already knew they drove on interstate highways, so as soon as they said it, my BS monitor went off like crazy. And it was a correct reading by the way.

That's not what you said earlier. Earlier you said you had no idea why they didn't, you just thought they liked to take the long scenic route.

Their BS hurts me when it's directed at me. They lied to me. That hurts. Are you honestly saying that when loved ones lie to you, it doesn't hurt or frustrate you? Are you honestly saying that if their lies and attempts at emotional manipulation cause you negative feelings, that's YOUR fault and not THEIR fault? Are you absolving them of any responsibility?

What I'm saying is that when I have been in situations like yours, (and you think only people with crappy parents will give you the answers you want and that those of us who write harsh truths had loving, giving parents...boy you could not be more wrong), it did hurt. So guess what? I STOPPED ASKING FOR ANYTHING! I said that in my very first reply to you!

No, I don't keep points. Let's put some reality on this though. Are you saying that if you had a family member who asked you REPEATEDLY to do things like take them to the doctor, pick things up on the way to the house, do work projects around their house, review legal contracts, accompany them to meetings with their attorney and financial advisors, etc - and all this took place several hours from your home so over the years you took vacation time, sick time, etc to do this for them, that you wouldn't be a bit put out if they 1) didn't pay you for things you picked up for them at the store, 2) gave things to and did favors for other family members who actually do nothing for them and 3) refused, with a BLATANT LIE, to do the SMALLEST thing you asked of them once in twenty years?

Are you saying that you wouldn't notice, and be peeved by, the discrepency in their "values" and the lack of respect they have toward the relationship?

I don't do things for people wondering what they might do for me in the future. I do things for people because I WANT to do things for people. If I do not want to do things for people, I tell them. I do not let people use me. If I don't want to take someone somewhere or I think they can do it themselves or I have other plans or I just don't want to do it, I don't do it. I'm not a doormat.

So, when I DO things for people, it's because I WANT to do them and no, if they don't do for me down the road, no, I don't get upset.

Here's an example scenario to think about and it will illustrate what I'm trying to say about expectations:

If I have a friend that is constantly asking for favors but never returns favors, it is UP TO ME to decide if I can accept that from that person or not. If I can accept that, because other qualities about them far outweigh this, then I NEVER ***** about it. EVER!

If I cannot accept that, because other qualities do not outweigh that, it is time for me to realize that I cannot accept that person as they are which means I cannot accept that person as a friend and it's time to cut ties. My friend continues to be who they are, I continue with who I am and no one gets butt hurt because the other isn't living up to some b.s. expectations.

If you have any idea of boundaries, you would probably re assess your interaction with these people - and usually, with close family members, this re assessment is emotionally painful and a bit difficult.

But you have proven, in your own posts, that you have NO idea about boundaries. None!

If that's called "keeping points" then I'm guilty as charged. But that's not how I see it at all.

That is how I see it and that's how a lot of people see it. "I did this for you, you should do this for me." That's called, "keeping points". Yes indeed.

My reaction would be unreasonable if it was truly "just about the Kindle." My reaction is not unreasonable considering that I need to plan how to define my relationship with my parents as they enter their elderly years. I will be the only sibling actively involved with them, and I feel that responsibility bearing down on me. Their already-selfish outlook on life seems to be becoming worse, and their demands more petulant. This is going to be difficult terrain to travel over, and I am REASONABLY concerned about this, and emotionally I need to work through some issues in order for all of us to work together as a family, After all, I do LOVE my parents very much, and I believe they love me too. I have to get my head around how to deal with them as they age.

No, your reaction is unreasonable NOT because of the damn Kindle, but because of how old you are, how old they are, and that you still do not get it that this is who they are and they are NOT going to change. You, at 50, should know this by now. Why on earth do you keep expecting a different outcome? WHY? You have given us PLENTY of information about how poorly they have treated you over the years, so why the hell would you expect anything different? Your reaction to them not going out of their way, not wanting to drive on the interstate for a Kindle, not wanting to do this for you IS unreasonable.

Sorry, but this is a ridiculous statement. I've made it very clear that I am interested in ALL responses, even the ones I disagree with. That being said, you seem irritated by my responses. My point was, if this thread or my responses irritate you, don't stress yourself out by reading it. But I suspect that you rather enjoy debating - and I can understand that, as I do also.

Go back and read what you have written to others who have also told you not to expect things. You have been less than kind to them. When someone responds that they "totally understand, your parents are horrible", you laugh and joke and commiserate with them. The rest of us, you insult.

You're not bothering me and I'm not bothering you apparently - so carry on as you see fit. I'll do the same.

As it should be.

If I wasn't interested in your responses, and the varied responses of others, I simply wouldn't read them. But don't confuse my disagreement with your assessment for animosity or a refusal to accept reality. I disagree with much of what you've said, and I've clearly laid out WHY.

See what I wrote above about how you have reacted to people, not just me, on this thread.

As for "harsh truth" - if this is as harsh as truth gets, bring it on! Of course, I may not even agree that what you're saying IS true, and if so, I will definitely let you know when I disagree. Maybe what I'm saying is the truth. Maybe there's some truth to what both of us are saying. I would bet that's the case.

Of course there is truth to what both of us are saying. You are hurt. Many people get hurt by parents or friends who act like this. The answer is, to learn not to expect anything. Why you have seen that as an attack, I don't know. You came on here to a public forum, asked us to weigh in, we have...many people have said the same thing: Stop expecting anything.

Guess what? All that hurt that you go through over little things like this? (Which, I KNOW!!!!!!! are part of a bigger thing), they stop when you stop expecting things.

You can disagree with me or judge my motives all you like. However, when it's all said and done, you do not know what my motivations are - you can only guess.

Likewise.

I enjoy discussing interpersonal relationships, and am an active member of this forum who will discuss and debate any number of topics with great gusto, and with page after page of responses, even over things like whether pinto beans can be used to make red beans and rice! I like the written word, and I love indepth discussions with people on a wide variety of topics. This topic just happens to be more personal to me than, say, whether or not East Texas is culturally part of the Deep South (another very active thread with lots of debate back and forth).

We are the same here. Well, not so much about pinto beans. I'm just not that interested in pinto beans.

Who cares? I care. I care when I am involved with them on a daily basis, and as their needs increase over time. The more they rely on me, the more I am in danger of being disrespected and frankly, abused - and by people who are absolutely OBLIVIOUS to their behavior. I don't think I am wrong to point out their inconsistencies from time to time.

They are not abusing you. Are they disrespecting you? You bet they are. Are they treating you differently than your brother? Yep, they sure are. (And, despite what you may think you know, some people on here know this all too well.) The POINT is, they aren't going to change. Period. They are not going to change. It will be you who needs to change your expectations in order for YOU to have a healthier, less angst ridden life with them. They won't do it, so YOU do it so YOU are happier.

It's not an all or nothing thing with anyone, in any relationship. I don't think we have to take the position of "they can act anyway they want to and if I don't like it, I can cut them off entirely." Frankly, I think that's ridiculous.

They are 70 years old. They aren't going to change. What part of that do you not understand?

For instance, my husband smokes. He smoked when I met him, and I accepted that and have never pressured him to quit, even though I would LOVE for him to quit.

That was your first lesson in not expecting anything. That is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. Some people in this world DO expect their significant others to quit once they get married or whatever. They actually expect it! And then there are fights and drama and crying and, 'you don't love me' and all kinds of horror that were totally unnecessary. But when it came to your husband, you got it!

Now, get that with your parents!

However, he cannot smoke in my car. It is MY CAR and he knows and has accepted that boundary. If he suddenly decided to light up in my car, do I have two options - either allow it or divorce him? No, I think I have another option, which is to remind him of my EXPECTATIONS and then enforce those expectations.

That's not an expectation, that's a rule.

He has also agreed not to smoke in the house - which I think is a very nice gesture on his part. If he started smoking in the house (that we are going to sell this next year - so besides the dangers of second hand smoke, I don't want a house reeking of cigarette smoke when we put it on the market), using your logic I would just accept it, or cut him off.

No. You still don't get it. If you didn't like him smoking in the house, you would ask him if he would please consider not doing so. You then, like two adults, would sit down and have a discussion about it. Whatever agreement was made, you would both accept and respect it.

If he did one day just start smoking in the house and you did not even afford him this adult conversation, you just flew off the handle because you expected him never to do it, then whatever fall out happened because of it would be YOUR fault.

My parents would TELL you that they would do small favors for me - or large favors for that matter. They would also tell you that they never would lie to me, or put some sort of guilt trip on me. In theory, those are the terms we've agreed to in our relationship - that we help each other out and that we are honest with each other. In practice however, they often don't hold up their end of the relationship.

Again, they are who they are, they aren't going to change. That's all this boils down to. I don't need several pages of examples and what they would tell me...I know this one all too well...personally...the fact is, they are not going to change.

Does that mean I cut them out of my life? I don't feel that it's that bleak. I DO see some improvement with them when I call their hand on things. I AM going to point out to them that they are inconsistent, and if the past is any indicator of the future, they may show some improvement. If not - oh well, they are still my parents, and I will just have to deal with their insensitivity and selfishness if I want to have any sort of relationship with them - which I do.

You have two choices:

Accept them for who they are.
Cut them out of your life.

Those are your choices.

So - I am sure I am in for more frustration over the next few years - just as they knew they were in for frustration when they had kids. I don't expect perfection from them - but I'm also not going to bottle up my frustrations.

But you don't have to be, is the point! You do not have to be in "for more frustrations over the next few years". That is the entire point of what I've been writing. You know how they are, you know they aren't going to change. Stop expecting anything from them!

I'm sure I'll write more threads like this in the future. I don't know that that's a bad thing. Like a good friend of mine told me one time, I'll probably never develop an ulcer because I don't internalize stress!

It's never good to internalize, agree there. You must also be very open to what people are telling you, especially if you keep hearing it from several different people. We don't always get to hear what we want to hear. Some of what we need to hear is extremely unpleasant. But I don't think anyone has come to this thread to mock you, spit at you, harass you or anything of the sort. I think anyone who has responded here, regardless of how some have said it, have all come to say, "Look, this is not healthy, here's why..." and many have told you the exact same thing: Stop expecting anything from them.

[KathrynAragon]

Sigh.

I don't have the time to respond to this point by point because believe it or not, I have a very full real life outside this forum. So I'll just try to condense my response.

1. You refuse to see that expectations are an integral part of rules and boundaries - there are very few differences between any of those three things in a relationship. I EXPECT the rules and boundaries of relationships to be respected and adhered to.

One of the "rules" (to use your word) in my relationship with my parents is that we do not lie to each other or make BS excuses for bad behavior. We are very open with each other about how we feel about different family situations. They are free to point out my faults (and I certainly have them) and I am free to point out theirs. They have absolutely no compulsion against calling "BS" on anyone's excuses - and I have no compulsion against calling it on them either. We as a family do not internalize our feelings or ignore bad behavior.

I do NOT "expect" my parents to do favors for me - which is why I rarely ask them to. The reason why I don't is that I know "it's just how they are" and I've accepted that about them. That does NOT mean that their selfishness doesn't irritate me - or even hurt me at times. I am a person who embraces emotions and feelings - I wouldn't have life any other way. Unfortunately if we're going to embrace emotions and relish the fullness they bring to life - sometimes that means accepting and even embracing sorrows and hurts along with the joys and triumphs. I'm OK with that. But I also analyze those emotions and try to make analytical choices after the dust settles.

Therefore - you keep asking "who cares" if they treat one sibling out of three differently, or if they don't come to the hospital when my entire family nearly dies in an accident, or when they lie to me to avoid doing one very simple and small thing for me. Well, I CARE. I know you don't care, and I don't expect you - a total stranger - to care. But I care. That has nothing to do with immaturity or lack of perspective. It has to do with the fact that I dearly love and cherish my parents, and that if I am going to open my heart to the POSITIVE and good things about a close relationship with them, then that means making myself a bit vulnerable to the hurts that may result as well.

Like I said, I'm not grieving and tearing my clothes and pouring ashes on my head. I'm just pontificating at this point. I'm wasn't upset about it the day after the incident.

2. I am NOT being a good daughter to them, or doing favors for them, expecting an equal number of favors, or an equal expression of affection, in return. THAT would be CRAZY considering our history which I've clearly laid out for you. So, no. No matter how many times you try to make this a tit for tat thing, that's not what it is. I regularly give more than I receive in this relationship, and I've come to terms with that for the most part. As you see, it's not the HUGE things that even trip me up - my gosh, I know better than to ever expect them to ACTUALLY BE PUT OUT in any significant way. It was my shock at their refusal to do such a SMALL thing for me that created my angst and hurt. In other words, I don't expect them to EVER do anything big for me, not anything along the lines of what I do for them regularly. I just didn't expect them to refuse to do something so incredibly small for me.

3. You do honestly on some level seem to think that your advice to me is helpful and that I just "don't get it." I will give you that much credit. I do think that you are sincere, even though you also seem argumentative. I can deal with that, and if you are truly trying to be helpful, I do appreciate that.

That being said, you clearly have no idea that I DO understand boundaries, that I usually keep them in place, and that I realize that it was my temporary lapse in judgment that helped create this scenario. I have admitted that several times, but I guess you missed it.

Therefore, I was hurt by their refusal. I accept responsibility for making the mistake of asking a very small favor of them. I should not have done so - which is of itself an irritating fact. I know full well that in a normal, healthy relationship I SHOULD be able to ask a small favor of them - and THAT is what occasionally irritates me -or even hurts me. So the acceptance of the fact that we do not have a normal relationship will probably always be a source of some sadness to me.

This does not negate their fault in this situation, and I am not so sure that it's healthy to gloss over or ignore this behavior in them, whether they accept my reproof or not. I feel that I should still stand by my boundaries, and let them know that I do not think they are being honest or respectful to me about this - that they have no problem expecting and even petulantly demanding favors big and small from me, and that it hurts me when they so blithely refuse to help me in the smallest way. This is called "open discussion" and whether they change or not (and they are unlikely to) at least I feel better personally because I've once again clearly defined where my personal boundaries are.

It's like my old country uncle used to say (and he had a slight lisp, so it was very endearing when he would say it):

"It ain't that I ain't never bin sh_t on - but I ain't never been sh_t on what I didn't KNOW I was sh_t on."

And I frankly don't like being sh_t on and don't take it laying down.

[MaggieZ]

thank you, three wolves in snow, for that common sense...I think she only likes to hear everyone's "poor pityful you, you deserve better".
OP, you are saying you are interested in everyone's opinion..you sure disregarded mine and I was not wrong in what I said there, I KNOW IT WAS NEVER ABOUT THAT F-ING KINDLE! IS IT EVER ABOUT THE KINDLE????
You sound very controlling and holier than thou and belittling in those posts, not saying you are controlling and holier than thou, don't get it wrong! You just SOUND it in the posts.... But usually, people who try to control a situation have none.
You still are just like your parents, denial can't get you a free pass out of that jail. We all are or eventually become our parents.
we also have full lives and yet we take the time to bother with your Kindle story.

[KathrynAragon]

Originally Posted by MaggieZ

thank you, three wolves in snow, for that common sense...I think she only likes to hear everyone's "poor pityful you, you deserve better".
OP, you are saying you are interested in everyone's opinion..you sure disregarded mine and I was not wrong in what I said there, I KNOW IT WAS NEVER ABOUT THAT F-ING KINDLE! IS IT EVER ABOUT THE KINDLE????
You sound very controlling and holier than thou and belittling in those posts, not saying you are controlling and holier than thou, don't get it wrong! You just SOUND it in the posts.... But usually, people who try to control a situation have none.
You still are just like your parents, denial can't get you a free pass out of that jail. We all are or eventually become our parents.
we also have full lives and yet we take the time to bother with your Kindle story.

Don't bother yourself then. I think from your tone it's obvious you've got some issues, including anger issues. I think it's ironic that in this same profanity laced response, you actually think it's appropriate to lecture me about the tone of my posts!

I am not much like my parents - and I've known that for many decades. That's one reason why we have some issues getting along sometimes. Our values differ quite a bit, as well as our positions on politics, humor, finances, moral questions, you name it. So your pithy comments about " all becoming our parents" really don't ring true at all. Maybe in your case, who knows? But my life and the application of my moral values has already manifested in the reality that I am not much like either of my parents. Sure I see some similar interests - such as a love of history (from my dad) and a love of writing (from my mom), but personality wise, we are VASTLY different -and they would tell you the same.

[exscapegoat]

Originally Posted by MaggieZ

thank you, three wolves in snow, for that common sense...I think she only likes to hear everyone's "poor pityful you, you deserve better".
OP, you are saying you are interested in everyone's opinion..you sure disregarded mine and I was not wrong in what I said there, I KNOW IT WAS NEVER ABOUT THAT F-ING KINDLE! IS IT EVER ABOUT THE KINDLE????
You sound very controlling and holier than thou and belittling in those posts, not saying you are controlling and holier than thou, don't get it wrong! You just SOUND it in the posts.... But usually, people who try to control a situation have none.
You still are just like your parents, denial can't get you a free pass out of that jail. We all are or eventually become our parents.
we also have full lives and yet we take the time to bother with your Kindle story.

I'm a little confused by the contradiction of the bolded part of the post above and the post below. Could you please clarify? If you don't think it's about the Kindle, then why were you in your earlier post, posting about destroying the Kindle to teach the OP a lesson?

Originally Posted by MaggieZ

to put it very bluntly... yes you should go get the darn thing if it means so much..why worry about money for gas or shipping when your peace of mind is at stake...you sound like your parents, don't want to be inconvenienced in any way...a 2 hour ride is nothing compared to all the worrying you've been doing, compared to all the dredging things up that you've been doing...and another thing, it's an object that can be replaced, you seem very attached to an object. Sure, it can be nice to have it but what did you do before your husband got you it? It's not good to attach such value to an object, what if someone broke it? would you ever forgive them? just sayin'
I feel like coming over there and stepping on it to show you it's an object that can be replaced.

I got very nervous reading your original message....anyone else? all this frantic family drama stuff over an object! What if something serious happened? good grief!
you are your parents, seriously..unless you are just playing here on this forum..

[MaggieZ]

First the Kindle was the root of her problem, yet it wasn't or maybe it was..oh wait! no, it wasn't
She kept going on about it as if it was the sole reason she posted..then she treats everyone like an idiot who even mentions the forgotten Kindle...call it sarcasm on my part

[KathrynAragon]

Originally Posted by exscapegoat

I'm a little confused by the contradiction of the bolded part of the post above and the post below. Could you please clarify? If you don't think it's about the Kindle, then why were you in your earlier post, posting about destroying the Kindle to teach the OP a lesson?

I agree - this person sounds pretty off the chain to me. Wow.