Will Scranton get passenger rail? (Wilkes-Barre, Easton: how much, hotels, train)

[wharton]

Originally Posted by quiet life

They haven't even built that Andover train station yet. It was due by 2022 a couple years ago. Now it's being pushed back to probably 2030. Some call it a train. Seems like a slow boat to China to me.

Probably best to avoid even mentioning China in a conversation about American infrastructure, especially trains. The average citizen of the good ole' USA is clueless as to how our infrastructure is, first in an extreme state of decline, with a lot of existing systems well beyond their service life, failing, and unmaintained or upgraded. Second, falling decades and more behind most of the developed world. Compared to a significant portion of the industrialized first world, we look like the thoroughly decayed, and rapidly declining, empire that we are.

In a three year span, starting in 2011, China pour more concrete than the US used in ALL of the 20th century. China ranks their cities by tiers, based on population. All of their third tier cities are interconnected by 300KPH (186 MPH) bullet trains. Higher tier cities have 400KPM (248 mph) trains, and the current upgrade goal is to push the fastest systems to 600KPM (372mph) . The other goal is to complete the transition to a 100% domestically sourced train system. Design and manufacture everything in the country, with zero imported anything. To put that in perspective, one of the five "high speed" lines in this country passes through my neighborhood, on it's way from Philly to Harrisburg. There are short stretches where it hits a whopping 110 MPH. So the best we have is a half century older tech, relying on rotting, century + old rail infrastructure, like stone bridges and culverts that are too small to allow trucks under, and a plodding electric train running a couple of times a day, half way across a state and back. This is the fifth busiest "High Speed Rail Line" in the country. You don't know whether to laugh or cry?

Scranton and Newark are both under the third tier class in China's ranking. If our infrastructure matched China's, you would be able to get on a 300 KPM bullet train in Scranton, and be in Newark in a bit over half an hour. Instead we spend decades shuffling about, and begging for somebody to restore a railway to some semblance of a 50-75 year old standard of passenger rail service, while reusing infrastructure that is a century + old and crumbing into ruin. It is way beyond pathetic, it's frightening to think that, collectively, we have fallen this far.

[jtab4994]

Originally Posted by wharton

Scranton and Newark are both under the third tier class in China's ranking. If our infrastructure matched China's, you would be able to get on a 300 KPM bullet train in Scranton, and be in Newark in a bit over half an hour. Instead we spend decades shuffling about, and begging for somebody to restore a railway to some semblance of a 50-75 year old standard of passenger rail service, while reusing infrastructure that is a century + old and crumbing into ruin. It is way beyond pathetic, it's frightening to think that, collectively, we have fallen this far.

The robber barons and government of China can do whatever they want. How many peasant farmers were displaced by bullet trains between City X and City Y? How many endangered species were effected? Do we have any way of knowing? Did anyone sue or even think about suing the government of China to stop, modify, or delay any rail project for any reason?

We have a different set of priorities in America, and high speed rail will never be a priority. Rail was a priority in our own robber baron past which is why the Lackawanna Cutoff was built in the first place.

Time to move on from rail. Self-driving electric vehicles are the future and that's where we need to compete with China.

[wharton]

Originally Posted by jtab4994

The robber barons and government of China can do whatever they want. How many peasant farmers were displaced by bullet trains between City X and City Y? How many endangered species were effected? Do we have any way of knowing? Did anyone sue or even think about suing the government of China to stop, modify, or delay any rail project for any reason?

We have a different set of priorities in America, and high speed rail will never be a priority. Rail was a priority in our own robber baron past which is why the Lackawanna Cutoff was built in the first place.

Time to move on from rail. Self-driving electric vehicles are the future and that's where we need to compete with China.

Different set of priorities indeed. What does the quarterly profit look like? How can we escape paying taxes? How can we get a gov. subsidy to off shoring good jobs, and destroy the future of our communities, as we pull out of everything but low paying service industries? How can we get tax cuts, and blow every dime of reduced tax burden and profit on stock buy backs? How high can we artificially drive stock prices, so the C suit folks can end up retiring with dozens of millions in their greedy little mitts? The only reason high speed rail is not a priority is because greed, profiteering and corruption rule our future, not intelligent planning, or long term thinking.

As for your first paragraph, oh please, spare us. Mountain top removal, delisting pristine wilderness to hand to corporate insiders for nearly nothing, eliminating hundreds of rules on air and water quality. Any of that sound familiar? How about our cancer alleys, where only the minorities and poor still live, and die early since they have few options. Don't forget about denying the "peasants" of California's central valley, and other Agricultural hot spots, access to safe clean water, since Ag. mega-corps are sucking aquifers dry, and poisoning surface water. Deregulating coal plant emissions in a fantasy that it will revive coal, and all the climate carnage and mercury added to the atmosphere are worth it, if it gets a president reelected. You are correct, we are angelic, compared to bad ole' China.

[fisheye]

Originally Posted by jtab4994

The robber barons and government of China can do whatever they want. How many peasant farmers were displaced by bullet trains between City X and City Y? How many endangered species were effected? Do we have any way of knowing? Did anyone sue or even think about suing the government of China to stop, modify, or delay any rail project for any reason?

We have a different set of priorities in America, and high speed rail will never be a priority. Rail was a priority in our own robber baron past which is why the Lackawanna Cutoff was built in the first place.

Time to move on from rail. Self-driving electric vehicles are the future and that's where we need to compete with China.

China has an authoritarian government. If they want more trains they will displace whoever the need to displace to make it happen. If our government practiced their form of government we would be killing each other in the streets. China is also a sworn enemy of the US sworn to take over without firing a shot. It is scary that they do know how to get things done and we forgot. But in many cases we willingly gave them anything and everything they needed so we could save a dollar. Unlike wharton I would never hold them up as a shinning example of what our future should look like. We do need to address our problems, but in our own way and not their way.

Personally I would like to see us turn our backs on them and become more self-sufficient. But I seriously doubt that is in the cards.

[jtab4994]

Originally Posted by wharton

As for your first paragraph, oh please, spare us. Mountain top removal, delisting pristine wilderness to hand to corporate insiders for nearly nothing, eliminating hundreds of rules on air and water quality. Any of that sound familiar? How about our cancer alleys, where only the minorities and poor still live, and die early since they have few options.

OK, so while China's government and robber barons do exactly what Big Ag and Big Government do in this country, at least China has high speed rail to show for it.

I won't argue whether smoke-belching factories in China are worse than smoke-belching factories in the U.S. But I will way "who cares"? Self-driving electric cars are the future, not taxpayer-funded high speed choo-choo's that only rich people will ride (like Amtrak Acela).

[jtab4994]

Originally Posted by fisheye

China has an authoritarian government. If they want more trains they will displace whoever the need to displace to make it happen...

That's exactly why they have high-speed trains and we don't. Because high Communist Party officials want them. Who rides those trains? High Communist Party officials and their families and mistresses.

Who would ride high-speed trains in the U.S.? Government officials and big business leaders, and their families and mistresses. So who would pay for it? We would.

Like restoring rail service to Scranton (the original subject of this thread) if anyone can propose a need for it, we'll talk.

[quiet life]

I ran across this site about the choo-choos.


Plan the Keystone - Home


I believe there is going to be a virtual meeting discussing rail service, construction, etc.

[fisheye]

Originally Posted by quiet life

I ran across this site about the choo-choos.


Plan the Keystone - Home


I believe there is going to be a virtual meeting discussing rail service, construction, etc.

It is a good link and, according to that information, there are no current passenger rail plans for Northeastern PA. You can see that in the Draft 2020 State Rail Plan in figure 5.3 which is after the 210 page report.

To me Pa will never get high speed passenger service after I looked at that report. Just look at our existing tracks. They were designed of the industrial age many, many, years ago. There are no straight lines, which is what high speed service requires. We would have to tunnel through the mountains to get the needed straight tracks today and use the power of eminent domain, which will never happen.

For any chance of passenger service to our area it would have to come through the New Jersey Transit Authority and they are not moving that fast in our direction.

[Wells5]

Originally Posted by wharton

To put that in perspective, one of the five "high speed" lines in this country passes through my neighborhood, on it's way from Philly to Harrisburg. There are short stretches where it hits a whopping 110 MPH. So the best we have is a half century older tech, relying on rotting, century + old rail infrastructure, like stone bridges and culverts that are too small to allow trucks under, and a plodding electric train running a couple of times a day, half way across a state and back. This is the fifth busiest "High Speed Rail Line" in the country. You don't know whether to laugh or cry?

This SEPTA cab ride goes from Philly 30th Street Station to Trenton. The condition of the tracks and the detritus of an industrial age visible on both sides as the train passes through northeast Philly is an embarrassment. That's also where the Acela travels. We'd need a major commitment to rebuild our passenger rail. Unfortunately, the USA is geared for war not infrastructure.


https://youtu.be/Wa7HREnzH-Q?t=990

[OyCrumbler]

Does anyone have a train schedule / timetable for when this train was running along the Lackawanna Cutoff? I'm curious as to what its speed was like back then (at least the Scranton to Andover part).

I think the good thing is that FRA reforms means that lighter rolling stock could be used which means lower operating and maintenance costs, lower initial purchase prices, less wear on tracks and brakes, and faster acceleration. However, I'd reckon if Amtrak or NJT were to buy new rolling stock, they'd probably use it for more heavily-trafficked current lines and scoot the older rolling stock as hand-me-downs to something like a Scranton-Hoboken service.