Will Scranton get passenger rail? (Reading, Portland: appointed, fit in, 2015)

[fisheye]

Originally Posted by jtab4994

You will ride an Elio in the Poconos before you ride a train in the Poconos.

You know what did not make any sense to me is that they claimed the Elio would sell for less that $8K and get 84 mpg. But the Polaris Slingshot sells for $26K and gets 20 mpg. Elio could be used all season long since it was covered like a car and the Slingshot was uncovered. You would think that some manufacturer would come up with something maybe in-between the price range of the failed Elio and the current Slingshot that would get great fuel economy. But it is like everybody gave up on fossil fuels, even though some of the energy to charge those batteries will come from those fuels!

PS When I was about 16 I had a 90cc motorcycle that got either 70 or 80 mpg.

[charmed hour]

I just looked at the Elio. In no way, shape, or form would I ever get in that thing. Nope. No thanks. Never. It's a jaws of life vehicle for a fender bender.

[jtab4994]

Originally Posted by fisheye

You know what did not make any sense to me is that they claimed the Elio would sell for less that $8K and get 84 mpg. But the Polaris Slingshot sells for $26K and gets 20 mpg.

The Slingshot has a 2.4 liter engine while the Elio "is projected to have" a 0.9 liter engine. Plus the Polaris is said to get 28 mpg highway, not 20. And for $26k you get a Slingshot. You can't put a price tag on the Elio, for obvious reasons.

PS When I was about 16 I had a 90cc motorcycle that got either 70 or 80 mpg.

Probably a smarter buy than an Elio.

[fisheye]

Originally Posted by jtab4994

The Slingshot has a 2.4 liter engine while the Elio "is projected to have" a 0.9 liter engine. Plus the Polaris is said to get 28 mpg highway, not 20. And for $26k you get a Slingshot. You can't put a price tag on the Elio, for obvious reasons.

I heard the 20 mpg from an owner online. But it could have been the way they drove it. My question was more about why do we not have small car companies that have used small, non-thirsty, motors? I had owned two of the old VW Beetles and I loved them. They were cheap a got pretty good millage. But out technology has improved since that time. I actually do not like the idea of three wheel vehicles because one wheel will always be in the snow during the colder seasons. If it is predominantly four wheel vehicles on our roads, that third wheel will ride in slush. That would not be good for a light vehicle.

Originally Posted by jtab4994

Probably a smarter buy than an Elio.

Anything is a smarter buy than a Ponzi scheme. The small motorcycle I had when i was young was a 2-cycle and then they made no 4-stroke engines that got great fuel economy. But today's motorcycles do offer fuel miser motors on some models: https://www.liveabout.com/fuel-effic...heeled-2399396. While cycles are lighter, still a small car company should be able to use some of that newer technology to put out great fuel efficient small cars.

[fisheye]

Originally Posted by charmed hour

I just looked at the Elio. In no way, shape, or form would I ever get in that thing. Nope. No thanks. Never. It's a jaws of life vehicle for a fender bender.

Like I said, I did not like the idea of three wheels in the snow. That old style VW Beetle did a great job and was pretty 'safe' for it's time. I had hit one large buck dead center with one going faster than it's listed top speed down a hill (probably around 80 mph). While I did do the work myself, it cost me only $350 to repair that vehicle and I managed to drive it to work and home before it was repaired. Of course that was 1970's prices and I know it would be considerably more today. Last week one of my coworkers hit a buck at the speed limit with her BMW. Projected cost of repair is in the thousands.

[HenryDavid]

Fisheye:

I think 3 wheel vehicles for road use would be a disaster in the making.

ATV manufacturers stopped producing 3 wheelers years ago due to high number of accidents/fatalities.
In my opinion it was a poor design.
The vehicles were unstable at high speeds - especially while turning.

Driver negligence and carelessness contributed a great deal, but lack of personal responsibility does not absolve manufacturers from product liability.

Your mention of the old VW bug brought back memories for me.
I owned one as a young guy. I recall that it was a great snow car due to the rear mounted engine.
Put a pair of snow tires on back and it would take you anywhere.

Only downside I recall was the lack of heat in the car. Since there was no radiator, the amount of heat you got was dependent on your speed. At highway speeds it was somewhat toasty after the engine radiant heat was pushed from the floor vents.

Since there was no dashboard fan there was no defroster either. I remember manually scraping the inside of the windshield. A few times slush built up on the underside of the car and froze the pedal controls.
Then the morning ritual would include lifting the floor mat and generously spraying the clutch and brake pedals so they would move freely.

But come the warmer weather life was good again while opening up the sunroof via the hand crank..

************

Back to EV's. I wonder how much battery juice is used if the driver runs the heat. I'm not sure how an electric car would produce cabin heat. I assume, since it has no coolant filled radiator, it would produce heat via heating coil elements, which would put a serious dent in the mileage range.

[jtab4994]

Originally Posted by HenryDavid

I think 3 wheel vehicles for road use would be a disaster in the making.

ATV manufacturers stopped producing 3 wheelers years ago due to high number of accidents/fatalities.
In my opinion it was a poor design.
The vehicles were unstable at high speeds - especially while turning.

Driver negligence and carelessness contributed a great deal, but lack of personal responsibility does not absolve manufacturers from product liability.

3-Wheel ATV's had a single wheel in the front. That's where the stability problem came from along with the short wheel base, high center of gravity. They really were rolling disasters begging to happen.

3-wheeled cars usually have two front wheels and a single powered wheel in the back. Morgan Motor Company has been making 3-wheeled cars for over 100 years and there's nothing inherently dangerous about the wheel configuration.

[fisheye]

Originally Posted by HenryDavid

Fisheye:

I think 3 wheel vehicles for road use would be a disaster in the making.

ATV manufacturers stopped producing 3 wheelers years ago due to high number of accidents/fatalities.
In my opinion it was a poor design.
The vehicles were unstable at high speeds - especially while turning.

Driver negligence and carelessness contributed a great deal, but lack of personal responsibility does not absolve manufacturers from product liability.

Your mention of the old VW bug brought back memories for me.
I owned one as a young guy. I recall that it was a great snow car due to the rear mounted engine.
Put a pair of snow tires on back and it would take you anywhere.

Only downside I recall was the lack of heat in the car. Since there was no radiator, the amount of heat you got was dependent on your speed. At highway speeds it was somewhat toasty after the engine radiant heat was pushed from the floor vents.

Since there was no dashboard fan there was no defroster either. I remember manually scraping the inside of the windshield. A few times slush built up on the underside of the car and froze the pedal controls.
Then the morning ritual would include lifting the floor mat and generously spraying the clutch and brake pedals so they would move freely.

But come the warmer weather life was good again while opening up the sunroof via the hand crank..

************

Back to EV's. I wonder how much battery juice is used if the driver runs the heat. I'm not sure how an electric car would produce cabin heat. I assume, since it has no coolant filled radiator, it would produce heat via heating coil elements, which would put a serious dent in the mileage range.

The old VWs had heat exchangers on the exhaust and they were quick to rust and get holes. Then you didn't get the heat from them they were designed to deliver. Yes, I remember scraping the frost from the windows when cold. I also remember, with snow treads, passing out four wheel drive vehicles climbing slippery hills; they did go great in snow. If I got stuck I would simply lift the back of the car up and set it out of the tracks! That was easier with the older ones that had the round bumpers.

I will have to look up the question about EVs and heat. But resistance heating does use plenty of electricity like many home owners found out. The colder it is outside, the more heat that would be needed and the less power that would be available from a cold battery.

[jtab4994]

Originally Posted by fisheye

I will have to look up the question about EVs and heat. But resistance heating does use plenty of electricity like many home owners found out. The colder it is outside, the more heat that would be needed and the less power that would be available from a cold battery.

Tesla uses a heat pump. This isn't the 1990's when EV's were only owned by hobbyists and weirdos; the technology has been vastly improved and is still improving.

https://www.tesmanian.com/blogs/tesm...eat-pump-range

https://usafacts.org/articles/how-ma...ns%20in%202018.

[fisheye]

Originally Posted by jtab4994

Tesla uses a heat pump. This isn't the 1990's when EV's were only owned by hobbyists and weirdos; the technology has been vastly improved and is still improving.

https://www.tesmanian.com/blogs/tesm...eat-pump-range

https://usafacts.org/articles/how-ma...ns%20in%202018.

If you just Bing 'in what temperatures do heat pumps work best' you get this response:

"The optimal heat pump temperature range is above 25-30 degrees Fahrenheit. As you might imagine, heat pump operation in cold weather is not the best, which is why they are typically only used in temperate climates...think beaches, palm trees, and oranges."

Then, if you read your first link from Tesla you you will see this statement:

"All of the power used to warm up a vehicle is converted into heat, meaning Tesla’s resistive heating system is 100% efficient. However, the energy used to produce heat comes from Tesla’s car battery, which is why the range can significantly decrease during cold weather."

Reading down further you can also read:

"For instance, heat pumps do not work well in extremely cold temperatures--although this is improving as more research is being done on heat pump efficiency."

Back in the 1980s we had a cold spell that lasted a week. Daytime highs did not break '0' for several days and the nighttime lows got down to -20. Of course many vehicles did not start because their batteries were frozen or too cold. Of course it would help Tesla if you kept it in a heated garage, but once you took it out, it would start cooling off. What happens with a Tesla if would ever encounter that harsh environment?

Conservation of energy, you don't get something for nothing.