Marylanders moving to Virginia in Droves (Leesburg, Fairfax: apartment, insurance, DMV)

[saganista]

Originally Posted by vicnice

Thats alot of ifs. But yes, I agree with you. The conditions have to be better in MD but absolutly it can make more sense.

It isn't necessarily the number of if's involved, but rather the ease with which they can be met. These supposedly inferior Montgomery County schools have had the top graduation rates among the fifty largest school systems in the country for four years running. With the special-case exception of TJ, their top schools match up well with our top schools. They have higher crime rates only because they have more Culmore and Route-1 type areas than we do. Crime in the upscale areas that the typical NoVa poster might live or work in or choose to visit is the same there as it is here -- all but non-existent. Montgomery County imposes personal and busines income taxes at the county level. At the same time, they have lower property tax rates and no car tax or BPOL tax. At the the end of the day, Montgomery County spends about $4700 per resident (2009 data) while Fairfax spends about $4300. This discussion ends up being one of whether chocolate or strawberry ice cream is superior. The actual facts are that the two counties are far more similar to than different from each other.

[mrchanello]

Amen saganista

[saganista]

Originally Posted by vicnice

The times might be right wing...

There isn't much to question it. They have since their founding taken positions from the extreme right-wing, and still do today. Their conclusions determine their facts, instead of the other way around.

Originally Posted by vicnice

If more people understood the tax situation, more would move.

Perhaps you don't understand that taxes are only half of the picture, services being the other. Consider that my own lovely Vienna/Oakton residence is not on the Vienna side of the line. I therefore have lower taxes. I also therefore have to pay out-of-pocket for private trash, leaf, snow, and junk removal. Are you sure that people who continue to live in actual Vienna do so only because they don't understand the tax situation?

Originally Posted by vicnice

People cant even tell you what the interest rate on their credit cards are (but they have down to a science what their salary should be). If more people knew that they could shave off 5-7-10K per year by crossing the potomac then it would make sense to pay a higher rent of a few hundred dollars.

Got data? Such would be necessary in order to establish the claim.

Originally Posted by vicnice

But sadly people miss the forest for the trees.

And some think the forest behind their house is the only one there is.

[pcity]

Originally Posted by Denton56

Rich people often DO go to states where they can pay lower taxes. Why wouldn't they? They obviously didn't rich by being stupid and they can afford to move. Didn't both Rush Limbaugh and Donald Trump leave NY because the taxes got too high. I doubt they're the only rich people to do that. Didn't both move to Florida where there is no state income tax? There's a reason why the states without income taxes, like Florida and Texas are having booms in population and states like Maryland and California are losing population. California has been losing businesses for a decade or more because of their sky high taxes. At some point ever higher taxes are counterproductive.

Do the super-rich do this? Sure. Does the average person? Not really.

Most people aren't that mobile. When they move, it's for a job. VA is getting more residents because that's where the jobs are.

VA's business-friendly policies (including, but not limited to, taxes) and educated residents attract businesses, and, in turn, people move here to work at them. Individual taxation is a much smaller part of the equation. I should know- I moved from a state that has lower taxes than VA (lower income tax, no sales tax on food and clothing, no car tax) because VA is the place I found a job.

[jmking]

Originally Posted by saganista

It isn't necessarily the number of if's involved, but rather the ease with which they can be met. These supposedly inferior Montgomery County schools have had the top graduation rates among the fifty largest school systems in the country for four years running. With the special-case exception of TJ, their top schools match up well with our top schools. They have higher crime rates only because they have more Culmore and Route-1 type areas than we do. Crime in the upscale areas that the typical NoVa poster might live or work in or choose to visit is the same there as it is here -- all but non-existent. Montgomery County imposes personal and busines income taxes at the county level. At the same time, they have lower property tax rates and no car tax or BPOL tax. At the the end of the day, Montgomery County spends about $4700 per resident (2009 data) while Fairfax spends about $4300. This discussion ends up being one of whether chocolate or strawberry ice cream is superior. The actual facts are that the two counties are far more similar to than different from each other.

Having lived in both areas, car insurance is much higher in Md and I mean double the costs. At least that has been my experience with an excellent driving record. That cost can be substantial or a deal breaker. But I will say I moved to VA in the very late 1980s, so I do carry some old baggage as far as being a little disgruntled with that issue some time ago.

[ACWhite]

I find it amusing that, on a daily basis, we all talk about the importance of living near where you work, how commuting is a huge factor in home choice, etc., but then when a right wing rag presents incomplete statistics purporting to show that people move because of a few dollars of perceived difference in taxes, some of us forget all about what we said about commuting.

Pcity made an excellent point on p. 1 of this thread, in providing data showing that ~33000 people move from VA to MD in the same time frame. I can't imagine that more than 5% of the net ~7000 inflow to VA made the decision based primarily on taxes. Probably ~65% decided the state based on job location, and ~30% on type of home/neighborhood sought, personal, family, schools and other factors.

[saganista]

Originally Posted by pcity

Do the super-rich do this? Sure. Does the average person? Not really.

No, the super-rich don't do it either. The impacts on them of the sorts of taxes that can actually be varied (i.e., state and local taxes) are trivial bits in their worlds. Far more important to them are the professional, political, social, cultural, and charitable networks that they have built up over the years. These are what provide them with stature, influence, opportunity, and eventually legacy. Does anyone seriously believe that wealthy folks throw all of that overboard on account of a few pennies one way or the other on state and local taxes that a good accountant can reduce to an inconsequential pittance in any case? Get real.

Originally Posted by pcity

Most people aren't that mobile. When they move, it's for a job. VA is getting more residents because that's where the jobs are.

This has been quite true of late, but isn't always.

Originally Posted by pcity

VA's business-friendly policies (including, but not limited to, taxes) and educated residents attract businesses, and, in turn, people move here to work at them. Individual taxation is a much smaller part of the equation. I should know- I moved from a state that has lower taxes than VA (lower income tax, no sales tax on food and clothing, no car tax) because VA is the place I found a job.

Exactly right. Taxes are one tiny variable in a long and complex equation. No one in his right head would act on the basis of taxes in isolation from all the other variables, many of which are far more important and consequential.

[saganista]

Originally Posted by jmking

Having lived in both areas, car insurance is much higher in Md and I mean double the costs.

That's still quite typically true (though not necessarily the "double" part), and it can be a little tough to fathom given that over very nearly the same total miles of public roadway, Fairfax County drivers log 40% more total vehicle miles driven per year than Montgomery County drivers do, and that while 15% of Montgomery commuters rely on public transit to get to and from work, fewer than 10% of Fairfax commuters do. Still, the gap in auto insurance rates rates favoring Fairfax has been both significant and persistent over time. Kind of makes you scratch your head a little.

[jmking]

Originally Posted by saganista

That's still quite typically true (though not necessarily the "double" part), and it can be a little tough to fathom given that over very nearly the same total miles of public roadway, Fairfax County drivers log 40% more total vehicle miles driven per year than Montgomery County drivers do, and that while 15% of Montgomery commuters rely on public transit to get to and from work, fewer than 10% of Fairfax commuters do. Still, the gap in auto insurance rates rates favoring Fairfax has been both significant and persistent over time. Kind of makes you scratch your head a little.

I'm no expert but it is because the states regulate insurance in its perspective state differently. Most insurance companies will tell you claims are higher in a given state (rate hikes) in which it may be true but those states that hold insurance companies to their word (contract) causes rates to climb too. No fault and Tort laws play a big role also.

[saganista]

Originally Posted by jmking

I'm no expert but it is because the states regulate insurance in its perspective state differently. Most insurance companies will tell you claims are higher in a given state (rate hikes) in which it may be true but those states that hold insurance companies to their word (contract) causes rates to climb too. No fault and Tort laws play a big role also.

So you're saying that the Maryland Insurance Administration is MIA in more ways than one? Maybe so. But some chalk it all up to there being more accidents per mile of driving in Maryland, higher rates of auto theft and vandalism, higher repair costs, larger medical and legal bills, and things like that. Those would all tend to drive rates up, of course...