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It is nowhere near $70k. Just look at page 12 right at the top. This is the ACS report. Honolulu County does have slightly higher wages than the rest but not enough to take it from about $45,000 (men and women average) to $70k. That HUD number for a 1 person family is not what you think it is, they adjust for high housing costs in Hawaii. This number is not far off from the BLS number at all, is equates to about $22.50 an hour... it is certainly closer to the BLS number than it is to $70k.
For me, it isn't in dispute that the overall state median for males is $48K.
I think we can agree on this, if the entire state median is $48K, Oahu is going to be far higher than that.
How much does the average person make on Molokai? Hawaii County? That is a lot of workers bringing down the average. (There are approximately 600,000 workers in Hawaii, of which 440,000 are in Oahu - note, not all full time)
Two problems for me with BLS numbers - it assumes every single position works 2,080 hours, so no overtime and makes no distinction for part-time. Second, it excludes everyone who is self-employed. My lawn guy makes over $100K and is self employed, my tax guy makes over $100K and is self-employed. I pay contractors where I work anywhere from $150-$200/hr - and I've got a small army. That is some serious money that is getting excluded.
This ACS report says this for Oahu: (Apologies for the formatting, note all of Hawaii has 317 census tracts, there are 67 census tracts with family household income above $100K, all on Oahu)
Median household income.
Waialae Iki (census tract 4.02) had the highest median household income which was
$158,105. All 43 census tracts that had median household incomes of $100,000 or more were located on the
Island of Oahu. (Table 2)
Median family income.
Waialae Iki (census tract 4.02) had the highest median household income which was
$158,105. All 43 census tracts that had median household incomes of $100,000 or more were located on the Island of Oahu. (Table 2)
Median family income. Round Top-Tantalus (census tract 32) had the highest median family income with
$195,739. There were 67 census tracts with median family incomes of $100,000 or more. All of these tracts were
Sometimes we just make things too difficult. Thou yes its great that the home ownership in hawaii is the highest its ever been for example and one could go "things are great in Hawai'i but compared to the rest of the country its bad.
Thou yes its great that the home ownership in hawaii is the highest its ever been for example and one could go "things are great in Hawai'i but compared to the rest of the country its bad.
How about 7% of Hawaii households have assets of more than $1 million excluding primary residence and retirement funds. In the top 3 of the U.S.
For me, it isn't in dispute that the overall state median for males is $48K.
I think we can agree on this, if the entire state median is $48K, Oahu is going to be far higher than that.
We don't agree that entire state median income is $48k, it is for males. For females (who make up about half of the workforce) it is $40k. So overall it is probably around $45k since men tend to work more hours than women etc... These wages rank 22nd and 17th respectively compared to other states. So slightly above median for the country despite the state of Hawaii having the highest COL and housing costs of any state.
We also don't agree that Oahu is going to be FAR higher. The report gives county data for median household incomes so we can scale Oahu to the state which is a fair assumption.
State Median Household Income = $68,020
Oahu Median Household Income = $73,388
Based on that, Oahu incomes are about 8% higher than the state as a whole. This is reasonable because Oahu makes up about 70% of the state workforce. Unless you think households are vastly different in Oahu than the rest of the state, we should be able to just scale the state median income for a full-time 12 month worker up by 8% to estimate Oahu.
So if I take $45K and multiply it by 1.08 I get basically $48.5k for Oahu. Still far from $70k.
Quote:
Originally Posted by whtviper1
Two problems for me with BLS numbers - it assumes every single position works 2,080 hours, so no overtime and makes no distinction for part-time. Second, it excludes everyone who is self-employed. My lawn guy makes over $100K and is self employed, my tax guy makes over $100K and is self-employed. I pay contractors where I work anywhere from $150-$200/hr - and I've got a small army. That is some serious money that is getting excluded.
Then scrap the BLS, I still think it is useful but the argument I just made is based entirely on ACS data which is what your HUD report is based on... So if you don't trust ACS then your whole argument collapses by default anyways and we might as well stop debating this. You were the very one that wanted data not anecdotes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by whtviper1
This ACS report says this for Oahu: (Apologies for the formatting, note all of Hawaii has 317 census tracts, there are 67 census tracts with family household income above $100K, all on Oahu)
Median household income.
Waialae Iki (census tract 4.02) had the highest median household income which was
$158,105. All 43 census tracts that had median household incomes of $100,000 or more were located on the
Island of Oahu. (Table 2)
Median family income.
Waialae Iki (census tract 4.02) had the highest median household income which was
$158,105. All 43 census tracts that had median household incomes of $100,000 or more were located on the Island of Oahu. (Table 2)
Median family income. Round Top-Tantalus (census tract 32) had the highest median family income with
$195,739. There were 67 census tracts with median family incomes of $100,000 or more. All of these tracts were
So there are a bunch of rich bastards in East Oahu? That is hardly news to anyone. The OP was asking about regular folks. Those are not regular folks. They are 1% folks well above the median. Those guys skew average wages but not median wages, they are just another data point in the median calculation. Nobody ever said their aren't a bunch of rich people on Oahu.
I think I have demonstrated pretty well, using the same base data you are citing, that your $67k for an individual argument is false. I really see no reason to debate that particular point any further.
Quote:
Originally Posted by whtviper1
That is a big leap all these generations are working, often the parents and/or grandparents aren't working and the census states most multi-generational households are immigrants due to cultural reasons.
One more thing I did want to add though... in terms of multi-generational households impacting median household income. Does any retirement income (Social Security, Military Retirement, Pensions, 401k payouts, IRA payouts) get counted in household income? If it does then living with grandma and grandpa will definitely skew household/family income higher. Judging from the Census Bureau's description of income, I suspect that cash benefits like those are in fact counted since this is based on self-reported income data but I can't be sure. All of those old retired folks can't be reporting zero. This would definitely help explain why Hawaii has such high household incomes despite having relatively mediocre wages.
Edit. I did some more digging and found the ACS income questions. They do in fact count those wage sources. I think that makes a strong case for multi-generational housing situations skewing household and family incomes higher.
Hawaii homeowship by Hawaii residents is at an all time high in its history.
The ACS data actually says that Hawaii ranks 47th out of 51 States (and D.C.) in terms of percent of occupied housing units that are owner occupied at 56.2%. R2512 page 13.
So while it may be a record high for Hawaii (I don't know your source for this), the state still ranks extremely low compared to other states in this regard. Most likely due to the disconnect between wages and COL.
Any recent boost could also be due to outside money coming in when people move there and bring assets with them. If a rich person moves to Hawaii and buys a house to live in they become a rich resident homeowner according to the data even though they are not from there and did not make their money there. Considering 4% of the population lived in a different state a year ago (R0703) and 17% of the population is foreign born (R0501) I don't think that is an unreasonable assumption.
These ACS reports are fascinating, who knew all of this info was available?
The ACS data actually says that Hawaii ranks 47th out of 51 States (and D.C.) in terms of percent of occupied housing units that are owner occupied at 56.2%. R2512 page 13.
So while it may be a record high for Hawaii (I don't know your source for this), the state still ranks extremely low compared to other states in this regard.
Any recent boost could also be due to outside money coming in when people move there and bring assets with them. If a rich person moves to Hawaii and buys a house to live in they become a rich resident homeowner according to the data even though they are not from there and did not make their money there. Considering 4% of the population lived in a different state a year ago (R0703) and 17% of the population is foreign born (R0501) I don't think that is an unreasonable assumption.
These ACS reports are fascinating, who knew all of this info was available?
Basically, viper believes the average 3-person household has only ONE person that is actually employed.
Yes, 2/3 of all the people on Oahu are children under the age of 16 and retired. Lots of kids. Lots of old futs.
UH, you can't really believe the median on Oahu is only 8% higher than outer islands. That makes no sense.
Why? Hmmmm, what is really located on those islands that pay well?
Let's take Oahu, just off the top of my head: Hawaiian Airlines, HMSA, Bank of Hawaii, American Savings, Central Pacific Bank, Queens Medical, Hawaiian Electric, Hawaiian Telcom, IBM, even a lot of non-civil positions for the State of Hawaii pay over $100K as they keep sweetening the offer to me. The list goes on and on. Even Waikiki bartenders often make more than $70K.
I'd peg Oahu at least 20% higher pay than outer islands.
Here is an interesting perspective on the high cost of living. Some of it is not realistic like eating fruits off trees but I agree with his main point which is to not try to live the same lifestyle as on the mainland.
Here is an interesting perspective on the high cost of living. Some of it is not realistic like eating fruits off trees but I agree with his main point which is to not try to live the same lifestyle as on the mainland.
What do you all think?
What are you referring to when you say "here is an interesting perspective"?
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