Is Columbus approaching the same level as Cincinnati and Cleveland. (Toledo: suburbs, best)
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Columbus will be the 2nd most dense out the 3-Cs either this year or next, passing Cincinnati (Columbus was at 3,728.4 vs. Cincy's 3,807.1 in 2012). This is a fact, not an opinion. So if Columbus isn't dense, neither is Cincinnati. Looking further into the future, Columbus just has to maintain its present growth and it will catch up to Cleveland as well, likely not long after the next census in 2020. Cleveland's 2012 density was 5,031.2. Franklin County is already the 2nd most dense, above Hamilton, but below Cuyahoga. Again, based on growth, that's a situation that will change sooner than later.
I disagree that it doesn't help put a city at a different level. A denser city means more overall vibrancy. Any major city has a lot of street-level activity, and that's caused by density. This helps create more demand for street-level retail and other amenities as well.
It has more than just a growing Mexican population. Every racial group increased, as did most ethnic groups. It's foreign-born population has grown to the highest level of any city in the state, easily.
It has 2 pro sports. Whether or not it gets more remains to be seen over time. Same thing with other amenities it may lack. It just has to keep growing.
i guess we can agree to disagree then. all your projections for growth and density imo , does not put columbus on another level equal to a cleve or cincy now, or maybe never. and i personally beleive cleveland will gain population starting 2020. cleveland already has some really great areas gaining population including downtown. cleveland has a LONG way to go in regards to other areas that are still wastelands/brownfields etc. but in clevelands case it can only get better and it is. and i know columbus is growing jbc, but dont think for a minute that cleveland and cincy are not trying to be more dynamic themselves. spending billions on new construction for their futures also.. ps- its not always about a growing population jbc (however good) that puts a city on a "different level". many smaller populated cities get more name recognition than columbus. ie. , austin,tampa,portland,charlotte,etc
i guess we can agree to disagree then. all your projections for growth and density imo , does not put columbus on another level equal to a cleve or cincy now, or maybe never. and i personally beleive cleveland will gain population starting 2020. cleveland already has some really great areas gaining population including downtown. cleveland has a LONG way to go in regards to other areas that are still wastelands/brownfields etc. but in clevelands case it can only get better and it is. and i know columbus is growing jbc, but dont think for a minute that cleveland and cincy are not trying to be more dynamic themselves. spending billions on new construction for their futures also.. ps- its not always about a growing population jbc (however good) that puts a city on a "different level". many smaller populated cities get more name recognition than columbus. ie. , austin,tampa,portland,charlotte,etc
True, population of a city is far from telling what kind of "level" it's on.
New Orleans - 370,000
Boston - 646,000
Washington - 632,000
All of these cities went through some pretty misrable declines in the 60s, 70s, and 80s too, only really starting to turn in the 90s. However, they are still way more part of the American fabric than 95% of all cities in the country.
i guess we can agree to disagree then. all your projections for growth and density imo , does not put columbus on another level equal to a cleve or cincy now, or maybe never. and i personally beleive cleveland will gain population starting 2020. cleveland already has some really great areas gaining population including downtown. cleveland has a LONG way to go in regards to other areas that are still wastelands/brownfields etc. but in clevelands case it can only get better and it is. and i know columbus is growing jbc, but dont think for a minute that cleveland and cincy are not trying to be more dynamic themselves. spending billions on new construction for their futures also.. ps- its not always about a growing population jbc (however good) that puts a city on a "different level". many smaller populated cities get more name recognition than columbus. ie. , austin,tampa,portland,charlotte,etc
Never is a very long time. All Columbus has to really do is continue to grow and its amenities will grow with it, just as they do with any other city. I never said population alone put a city on another level. However, Columbus' growth rate will gradually allow it to make up the difference between what it's lacking and what Cincinnati/Cleveland may have. I know the other two are not standing still and have regained some of their lost momentum, but there's something to be said for the pace of that momentum. At this point in time, Columbus still has the advantage on certain things, and momentum is one of them.
I think Cleveland growing in 2020 is probably very unlikely. It had some of the strongest downtown growth of any city in the Midwest, but it was easily overwhelmed by all the other areas still in decline. The downtown growth will likely continue and perhaps spread out further to adjacent areas, but it's still a relatively small part of the city. It's going to take longer for the tipping point to be reached.
My intent of the original question was to try and identify areas where Columbus is gaining ground on the other two. We all know Cbus will never have the history element so that already takes it down a notch but there are things that can help to boost it up despite this. To me, number of jobs, metro or urbanization population, fortune 500 and 1000 companies, pro sports teams and overall infrastructure can boost a region in someone's mind.
I realize this is sometimes hard to extrapolate but my point was, what has Columbus gained or still needs to gain in order to be on a level that it would be hard to find glaring differences between the metros.
A short list IMO...a far denser urban core...both Cincy and Cleveland have higher downtown populations and also have more downtown worker populations.
Bring in a MLB team instead of a Minor League team...and get an NFL team and shed the Buckeye town mentality (hard for me to say this since I'm an OSU grad and love my Buckeyes more so than the Browns or Bengals now)...but the reality is that Pro Sports is much bigger than college sports on the national mind.
Embrace Public Transport and build some Light Rail lines (admittedly Cincinnati also needs this but even our bus system here is better than Columbus' bus system)...this is where Cleveland is far ahead of both.
Improve the museums...Cincinnati has the world class Museum Center at Union Terminal...the Freedom Center...the Art Museum in Eden Park (free entry)...Cleveland has the world class Museum of Art (free entry), Rock & Roll HOF, Childrens Museum, Natural History Museum, Great Lakes Science Center, and the new MOCA...Arts scene puts Cleveland well ahead.
Improve the Parks...Cincinnati has the beautiful restored Washington Park, the new Smale Riverfront Park...incredible parks like Eden Park, Alms Park, Ault Park, Winton Woods, Sharon Woods....Cleveland has the Metro Parks Emerald Necklace...Edgewater Park, and the Cuyahoga Valley National Park....Columbus has what...Gooddale Park (which is basically a field...they could turn that into a Washington Park type place).
Try and create something uniquely Columbus...for instance, when I mention Skyline Chili you just think Cincinnati...or Pierogis, you think Cleveland...Great Lakes Christmas Ale, Cleveland...Graeters Ice Cream, Cincinnati...these are know brands to these cities outside of Ohio...Columbus has nothing like that.
I think Columbus is approaching the level of Cincy and Cleveland...but will always be kept back because they don't have the historical fabric the other 2 Cs have...but they can make up for it in other areas...they just need to focus on it.
Some things that have become equal to or even surpassing the other Cs is the Columbus Zoo...it's on par w/ the Cincinnati Zoo and far better than the Cleveland Metroparks Zoo...COSI Columbus is a better Science Museum than the Great Lakes Science Center...Cincy has nothing like that at all...the Arena District was done better than the Gateway Complex in Cleveland...I think once The Banks and Smale Riverfront Park are done, Cincinnati's stadia will be in a better area than the Arena District but still, Columbus did well w/ that.
I do think it's stupid that Columbus didn't put their casino downtown...that really could have helped continue the growth in downtown Columbus.
A short list IMO...a far denser urban core...both Cincy and Cleveland have
higher downtown populations and also have more downtown worker populations.
What do you define as the "urban core"?
Quote:
Bring in a MLB team instead of a Minor League team...and get an NFL team and
shed the Buckeye town mentality (hard for me to say this since I'm an OSU grad
and love my Buckeyes more so than the Browns or Bengals now)...but the reality
is that Pro Sports is much bigger than college sports on the national mind.
Columbus attempted to get a MLB team back in the early 1990s, I believe. It's because of the owners in the other 2-Cs that this didn't happen. They do not want the competition, and this goes for basketball and football as well.
Quote:
Improve the Parks...Cincinnati has the beautiful restored Washington Park, the
new Smale Riverfront Park...incredible parks like Eden Park, Alms Park, Ault
Park, Winton Woods, Sharon Woods....Cleveland has the Metro Parks Emerald
Necklace...Edgewater Park, and the Cuyahoga Valley National Park....Columbus has
what...Gooddale Park (which is basically a field...they could turn that into a
Washington Park type place).
There are about 30,000 acres of parks in and around Columbus. Goodale is hardly the only one. The city has also commissioned a study for long-term planning on its park system, which will identify where parks are lacking.
Quote:
Try and create something uniquely Columbus...for instance, when I mention
Skyline Chili you just think Cincinnati...or Pierogis, you think
Cleveland...Great Lakes Christmas Ale, Cleveland...Graeters Ice Cream,
Cincinnati...these are know brands to these cities outside of Ohio...Columbus
has nothing like that.
People may not know where they're located, but Columbus does not lack in recognizable brands. Wendy's comes to mind right off the bat. And I can think of about 100 things that say Cleveland more than pierogis.
Quote:
I think Columbus is approaching the level of Cincy and Cleveland...but will
always be kept back because they don't have the historical fabric the other 2 Cs
have...but they can make up for it in other areas...they just need to focus on
it.
Kept back from what, exactly? How has Columbus been suffering over the last few decades by not being exactly like Cleveland and Cincinnati? I would really like someone to answer that, because it seems the foregone conclusion is that it needs to be to be considered a successful city. Yet by many measures, it is and has been doing very well, especially in relation to every other major city in Ohio.
Quote:
I do think it's stupid that Columbus didn't put their casino downtown...that
really could have helped continue the growth in downtown Columbus.
Columbus didn't need a casino in its downtown to promote growth. The growth was happening already, and the Arena District has not exactly been lacking in development lately. The West Side needed the jobs and economic boost far more, and while it may not ever be a destination, it's pretty much where it should be and where the people wanted it. It was voted on, after all.
A short list IMO...a far denser urban core...both Cincy and Cleveland have higher downtown populations and also have more downtown worker populations.
Bring in a MLB team instead of a Minor League team...and get an NFL team and shed the Buckeye town mentality (hard for me to say this since I'm an OSU grad and love my Buckeyes more so than the Browns or Bengals now)...but the reality is that Pro Sports is much bigger than college sports on the national mind.
Embrace Public Transport and build some Light Rail lines (admittedly Cincinnati also needs this but even our bus system here is better than Columbus' bus system)...this is where Cleveland is far ahead of both.
Improve the museums...Cincinnati has the world class Museum Center at Union Terminal...the Freedom Center...the Art Museum in Eden Park (free entry)...Cleveland has the world class Museum of Art (free entry), Rock & Roll HOF, Childrens Museum, Natural History Museum, Great Lakes Science Center, and the new MOCA...Arts scene puts Cleveland well ahead.
Improve the Parks...Cincinnati has the beautiful restored Washington Park, the new Smale Riverfront Park...incredible parks like Eden Park, Alms Park, Ault Park, Winton Woods, Sharon Woods....Cleveland has the Metro Parks Emerald Necklace...Edgewater Park, and the Cuyahoga Valley National Park....Columbus has what...Gooddale Park (which is basically a field...they could turn that into a Washington Park type place).
Try and create something uniquely Columbus...for instance, when I mention Skyline Chili you just think Cincinnati...or Pierogis, you think Cleveland...Great Lakes Christmas Ale, Cleveland...Graeters Ice Cream, Cincinnati...these are know brands to these cities outside of Ohio...Columbus has nothing like that.
I think Columbus is approaching the level of Cincy and Cleveland...but will always be kept back because they don't have the historical fabric the other 2 Cs have...but they can make up for it in other areas...they just need to focus on it.
Some things that have become equal to or even surpassing the other Cs is the Columbus Zoo...it's on par w/ the Cincinnati Zoo and far better than the Cleveland Metroparks Zoo...COSI Columbus is a better Science Museum than the Great Lakes Science Center...Cincy has nothing like that at all...the Arena District was done better than the Gateway Complex in Cleveland...I think once The Banks and Smale Riverfront Park are done, Cincinnati's stadia will be in a better area than the Arena District but still, Columbus did well w/ that.
I do think it's stupid that Columbus didn't put their casino downtown...that really could have helped continue the growth in downtown Columbus.
This is a pretty good, non biased post. Most posts in this thread have been your traditional Ohio you don't have this so I am better than you.
To the OP. I certainly think Columbus can compete with Cincinnati and Cleveland. Just from an urban perspective and what I want out of a city, I prefer Cincinnati and Cleveland to Columbus. That doesn't mean I don't think Columbus has some awesome neighborhoods, because even though it does have Sunbelt characteristics, few Sunbelt locations can even claim half the neighborhood vitality that Columbus has.
What I do get tired of hearing is that Ohio should be grateful that Columbus is growing and doing wonders for the state. Like Cincinnati and Cleveland, let alone Akron, Dayton, Toledo, Youngstown, Canton, etc haven't contributed towards helping the state at all. Sorry, I am one of those people that hate the politicians in Columbus, and refuse to give any Turnpike money to other parts of the state so they can pay for infrastructure projects. That's beside the point. Unlike one poster from the far north, just because Columbus doesn't have 2 million miles of bike lanes, doesn't mean it lacks awesome neighborhoods with great vibes for all kinds of people. I just prefer what Cincinnati and Cleveland have to offer.
This is something totally different than what was provided in the link before. This is about a state organization doing a crappy (and likely corrupt) job at creating jobs and economic prospects for Ohio overall. Your earlier link shows that the amount of tax money given to Columbus for job creation did, in fact, create more jobs at a lower cost per job. So if you're equating job tax subsidies with corruption, why exactly would they cost LESS in Columbus? Shouldn't they cost more, indicating less efficiency?
First of all, you've not connected that the two articles (one, indirectly; the other, directly) referred to the very same source of questionable funding ("JobsOhio") that provides Kasich and his cronies and Columbus in general such a lucrative and powerful economic advantage over all other Ohio municipalities.
Second, you've avoided focusing on the significance that the labyrinth of powerful politics allied with big business gives to Columbus--and, instead, insisted that we be bedazzled by its outward appearance, its shiny surface veneer. After all, who of us dares argue with success--especially when it manifests itself so "visibly"?
First of all, you've not connected that the two articles (one, indirectly; the other, directly) referred to the very same source of questionable funding ("JobsOhio") that provides Kasich and his cronies and Columbus in general such a lucrative and powerful economic advantage over all other Ohio municipalities.
Second, you've avoided focusing on the significance that the labyrinth of powerful politics allied with big business gives to Columbus--and, instead, insisted that we be bedazzled by its outward appearance, its shiny surface veneer. After all, who of us dares argue with success--especially when it manifests itself so "visibly"?
None of this answers the question of why creating a job in Columbus cost $2,500 less. I don't disagree that Columbus got more money. I'm questioning your conclusion of why that is and what it might mean. Frankly, from the very beginning, JobsOhio was a joke and simply a way for Kasich to hand some of his buddies cushy jobs of their own. And they've certainly been lackluster at actually creating jobs in Ohio. These things I'm not disputing. But of the money that cities did actually receive and what jobs were actually created, why was Columbus creating them more efficiently? You automatically assume that Columbus gets more money because of political corruption, but the problems within JobsOhio aren't necessarily the reason why Columbus got more money. That connection wasn't established with what you provided.
Columbus attempted to get a MLB team back in the early 1990s, I believe. It's because of the owners in the other 2-Cs that this didn't happen. They do not want the competition, and this goes for basketball and football as well.
There are about 30,000 acres of parks in and around Columbus. Goodale is hardly the only one. The city has also commissioned a study for long-term planning on its park system, which will identify where parks are lacking.
People may not know where they're located, but Columbus does not lack in recognizable brands. Wendy's comes to mind right off the bat. And I can think of about 100 things that say Cleveland more than pierogis.
Kept back from what, exactly? How has Columbus been suffering over the last few decades by not being exactly like Cleveland and Cincinnati? I would really like someone to answer that, because it seems the foregone conclusion is that it needs to be to be considered a successful city. Yet by many measures, it is and has been doing very well, especially in relation to every other major city in Ohio.
I bet most people dont know wendys started in cbus. Thats really reaching for an identity. I have to agree with others, the buckeyes are the only show in town when it comes to identity.
Columbus didn't need a casino in its downtown to promote growth. The growth was happening already, and the Arena District has not exactly been lacking in development lately. The West Side needed the jobs and economic boost far more, and while it may not ever be a destination, it's pretty much where it should be and where the people wanted it. It was voted on, after all.
it doesnt take a rocket scientist to look at the population growth trends and numbers from the census to figure out that columbus will be, in most of our lifetimes the largest msa in ohio sooner rather than later,probably wont pass the cleveland csa for a long time but the demographics favor columbus long term.that doesnt mean cleveland isnt a great city or wont be relevant..cincy is in much better position imo,but the census numbers for both the msa and csa population growth the last decade were a red flag,im encouraged that the economic numbers for cincy might signal a return to modest growth.im more worried about dayton and toledo,akron and youngstown,its important these cities dont become little detroits
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