[ManOnTheMoon]

Originally Posted by Raphael07

Yes Calvinist. You do. Let's hear it. You've called it immoral this whole time yet you refuse to say WHY it is immoral. So we're waiting now for your reasons. Patiently, might I add.

I second this. I'm all ears. I would really like to be proven wrong on this, and have homosexuality demonstrated to be immoral. The crutch always used is Biblical citation-- as if that held any weight.

[McBain II]

Originally Posted by ManOnTheMoon

I second this. I'm all ears. I would really like to be proven wrong on this, and have homosexuality demonstrated to be immoral. The crutch always used is Biblical citation-- as if that held any weight.

I'm still waiting too.

[Calvinist]

Originally Posted by Raphael07

Yes Calvinist. You do. Let's hear it. You've called it immoral this whole time yet you refuse to say WHY it is immoral. So we're waiting now for your reasons. Patiently, might I add.

Sex is a gift given to man by God for the marriage relationship. Any practice outside of marriage is immoral.

[DentalFloss]

Originally Posted by Calvinist

Sex is a gift given to man by God for the marriage relationship. Any practice outside of marriage is immoral.

That is not an explanation, it's a declaration. As I believe the bible to be nothing more than a book written by man, you'll have to explain it sans biblical references for me to take you seriously.

[Calvinist]

Originally Posted by DentalFloss

That is not an explanation, it's a declaration. As I believe the bible to be nothing more than a book written by man, you'll have to explain it sans biblical references for me to take you seriously.

So we should then ignore its claims about murder, stealing, etc as well?

[HandBanana]

Jesus christ (<--irony!) the reason we forbid killing and stealing has nothing to do with your silly book of Bronze Age magic. We outlaw those things because you cant have a society with people running around stabbing each other and jacking each other's **** all the time.

[DentalFloss]

Originally Posted by Calvinist

So we should then ignore its claims about murder, stealing, etc as well?

No, not at all, for I can explain why they are immoral and should not be done, and should incur punishment if they were done without referencing the bible, in a manner that 99.5% of the population would both understand, and agree with.

That is what I'm waiting for from you vis-a-vis homosexual (or any non-marital) sex.

[Raphael07]

Originally Posted by Calvinist

Sex is a gift given to man by God for the marriage relationship. Any practice outside of marriage is immoral.

That answer is considered invalid in a secular republic, even if we share the same religious beliefs. Please try again. I will continue to wait.

[ManOnTheMoon]

Originally Posted by Calvinist

Sex is a gift given to man by God for the marriage relationship. Any practice outside of marriage is immoral.

Obviously I don't have to tell you that that is religious reasoning, and thus, should be nowhere near our laws. You also lump murder and robbery in with homosexuality, using the shaky logic that Christian morals make sense in one instance, they can be appled universally. I shouldn't have to say so, but Christians don't have a monopoly on ethics. They don't have exclusive rights to object to murder or robbery. Plenty of people, myself included, live by our own codes of ethics without the need for religion. I don't steal, I do my nest to not harm anybody, and I constantly try to remind myself to be humble and grateful for what I am fortunate enough to have. I imagine you would describe yourself in a similar way, Calvinist. But we are different, obviously. I don't believe there is a god. Further, I believe that there probably is no god, a step further down the pagan path, though the scientist in me stops me from speaking in absolutes. If I hold similar values as religious people while being without religion, an intelligent person would conclude that these are not uniquely religious values.

Now, it's irrelevant whose morals are superior, since we're not discussing who would mske the best role model for children, a discussion where moral character is a relevant topic. Instead, we're discussing the law, the law in a country I'll remind you is supposed to be secular. If the justification for legislation is purely religious, it shouldn't be legislation. Not here. If you want to introduce it as s code of conduct at your church, that would be applicable, but using religion to justify laws is archaic, puritan thinking. Now, the logical legislative reasoning behind crimes like rape, murder, and robbery being considered, well, crimes, should be obvious to you, but please feel free to point out any laws you feel are strictly the result of religious influence, and what makes them so applicable today.

[HandBanana]

Originally Posted by ManOnTheMoon

You also lump murder and robbery in with homosexuality, using the shaky logic that Christian morals make sense in one instance, they can be appled universally.

I think homosexuality is ok but only (only) in self defense.