Strauss and Howe Generational Theory (pregnant, son, classes, 17 years old)
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Just for starters a heck of a lot of "GI's" fully understood why the Boomers were rebelling against a "crisis". (Which it wasn't, BTW. We had no Pearl Harbor for starters. Ever read the Tonkin Gulf Resolution and the history behind it?)
I, like the other Boomers here, remember full well where I was the night the ping pong balls determined the fates of our brothers and friends. More than one "GI" dad (and mother) wept with relief if their son's birthdate meant his draft number was 250 or above.
GOAT: Where have you gotten your conclusions? Books? Teachers? How many Boomers have you actually sat and LISTENED to. Three hours in my house with my Boomer relatives and friends would have your head spinning as we corrected some of your theories. Sorry.
Am I passionate? You bet. Probably because I'm pretty tired of being told what Vietnam and that era was like by people who didn't live it and have a very cursory, narrow understanding of it.
I really, truly would like to know how you've gotten these opinions.
And I'm offended, BTW, by the "rise to the occasion" remark. My DH and two of my brothers served in Vietnam. I can assure you they saw the horrors of war. And what they "rose to" was being there for their buddies. THAT is what Vietnam was really about. ANY Vietnam Vet will tell you that.
And maybe, just maybe, protesting an illegal war and trying to stop it WAS rising to the occasion. Hmmmmm??
Oh, the Viet Nam discussion . . . it had to happen!
My Dad, a former Marine and I mean - a true Leatherneck, Korean era vet. . . the only time he and I ever got into a screaming match, something NO ONE would be stupid enuff to do even w/ my Dad today at 81 . . . the ONE TIME we had a knock down throwing stuff screaming at each other yelling match was over Viet Nam.
My Dad was serving as a member of our state's General Assembly at the time, so he was appalled that I was a "dove" (remember that term???) There I was, participating in peace demonstrations while he was solidly backing his government, something he was RAISED TO DO. To do otherwise was tantamount to treason.
I was cheering on folks who were escaping to Canada. Dad accepted the politico label "draft dodger" and was incensed that anyone would be such a weasle as to try to get out of DOING HIS DUTY TO GOD AND COUNTRY and skip out on military service.
Since this was NOT a declared war and in my opinion at the time, was a war based on lies and deception. . . I felt it was sacrilege to the honor of the USA that we were even IN Vien Nam and that the draft was illegal conscription. So let's say - I had no problem voicing my very strong beliefs about my friends being shipped off to VN . . . and my Dad had what he thought was the "moral high ground" and "loyalty to the country" argument on his side.
It was the nastiest confrontation my dad and I have ever had . . . and up to that point, we had been very close . . . but there was not gonna be any peace in our house as long as we disagreed on this subject. The only peace we came to was to agree to disagree and never discuss the matter again.
Of course, as history would have it . . . my friends and I were right - the military was feeding us all BS w/ troop estimates (TY, Gen Westmoreland) - something that became painfully all too obvious after the Tet Offensive. Or let's say - it should have been obvious, but for the games being played with the numbers.
Sometime in the late 80s, my Dad took me aside and said - "I have wanted to say this to you for a number of years. I just want to set the record straight on Viet Nam. I was wrong. You were right. And I wish I had been able to hear what you were saying, but I couldn't b/c I was coming f/ a place of trust in our government and to refuse to serve in the military was something that went against everything I had been taught and believed in."
I told him I appreciated his wanting to clear the air on that - but of course, I had known that he had figured all this out along the way somewhere, and I was frankly proud that we had experienced that part of history together - even tho on opposite sides.
Later, it occurred to me that my Dad was only 38 years old at the time we had that argument! What a shock it must have been to have finally realized that the government (both the military and the CIA!) he had proudly served as a Marine had played games w/ young men's lives only a generation later.
ETA: I would like to state that there were many war protestors like me - but the media never focused on us. We were proud of our brothers, cousins, neighbors, friends who were being forced to serve in the military. Our total concern was that they should NEVER have been forced to participate in an undeclared war, especially one that was being purposely manipulated by the military complex. We simply wanted the draft to stop and our soldiers to COME HOME. The disrespect that was shown to many VN vets when they returned home made me furious. I never understood how part of the peace movement got twisted into direct animosity towards the soldiers themselves. I have waited to hear someone explain to me why people treated the soldiers we prayed for daily that way, but I have never really gotten an explanation nor have I heard an apology from someone who spat on a soldier or screamed at a soldier after they returned here. I guess folks are too embarrassed to admit they had been the jackass who had behaved that way.
Last edited by brokensky; 09-02-2011 at 10:52 AM..
IMHO, with all deference to someone I greatly respect on this forum, I think you are failing to take a dispassionate look at the history and what I am pointing out. The fact that you lived through it makes it hard to separate the "big picture" from your personal experience.
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Just for starters a heck of a lot of "GI's" fully understood why the Boomers were rebelling against a "crisis". (Which it wasn't, BTW. We had no Pearl Harbor for starters. Ever read the Tonkin Gulf Resolution and the history behind it?)
I think many of the GI Generation did understand why, because for many it was a reality very close to home. It was their children who were being asked to fight. However, outside of that, those in power at the time were quite shocked over the reaction, both the GI's and the Silents. Afterall it was the GI's in power who propagated the war and got us involved in it to begin with, to "protect" the world from communist influence, but mainly to assert the dominance of the America that they created.
As for the Tonkin Gulf Resolution, I am quite aware of what it was and what happened. The first attack occurred on August 2nd and the US ships as well as fighter bombers responded and damaged 3 of the 4 boats, it is now believed that the attack was a case of mistaken identity on the part of the North Vietnamese. On August 4th, there was another "incident", but in the words of LBJ "our boys could have been shooting at whales for all I know". Regardless, the second incident was used as a pretext to give LBJ the authority to use whatever force he deemed necessary to "express the unity and determination of the United States in supporting freedom and in protecting peace in southeast Asia as well as defending the Armed Forces and interests of the United States". Plain and simple it was intended to be a show of force to the Soviets and grew out of a gross distortion of a relatively minor incident, that was not uncommon in the Cold War years.
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I, like the other Boomers here, remember full well where I was the night the ping pong balls determined the fates of our brothers and friends. More than one "GI" dad (and mother) wept with relief if their son's birthdate meant his draft number was 250 or above.
Perfectly understandable reaction. Mothers and fathers wept when their children were drafted to fight in WW2, the Civil War, etc. Their reaction to THEIR child being drafted is different then their generational reaction to the war as a whole. An attitude that wasn't changed until well into the late 1960's.
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GOAT: Where have you gotten your conclusions? Books? Teachers? How many Boomers have you actually sat and LISTENED to. Three hours in my house with my Boomer relatives and friends would have your head spinning as we corrected some of your theories. Sorry.
Am I passionate? You bet. Probably because I'm pretty tired of being told what Vietnam and that era was like by people who didn't live it and have a very cursory, narrow understanding of it.
I really, truly would like to know how you've gotten these opinions.
I've stated before what my educational background is. I studied Political Science, Hisotry and Economics. My views on the time period are tempered by family, professors and people who lived it, not just raw facts.
My entire point wasn't to diminish personal experience and sacrifice when it came to something like the Vietnam War. It was merely to illustrate that the Vietnam War was NOT the event that shaped the Boomers, it was the Boomers that shaped the perspective of the Vietnam War. Perhaps it would be better if we want to discuss the "theory" aspect to role it back further in history to avoid personal perspective?
To better explain what I was getting at, don't look at Vietnam as a single seminal event. Look at it as an event that occurred during a time of massive social change. The "Counterculture Movement" began long before there was a Vietnam War. This movement traces its roots back to 1956 and spans until 1974. Counterculture hit the mainstream in London in 1958 with the "ban the bomb" protests (origin of the peace symbol) and quickly spread to the United States.
Elements of counterculture existed before there were even advisors in Vietnam. The era is not defined by the War, it is defined by the culture around it. Race relations, sexual mores, women's rights, questioning authority, experimentation with drugs, changing of the "American Dream" were all things that were manifesting within the culture of the times, regardless of the Vietnam War. The War did not cause the cultural change, but the cultural changes certainly defined the War.
Vietnam became a symbol of the misguidance and indulgences of the establishment that was being rebelled against. It served as a uniting cause for disparate counterculture groups to rally around and these groups became part of the larger Anti-War Movement; The Civil Rights Movement, Free Speech Movement, New Left, Feminism, Environmentalism, Gay Liberation, Hippies, Sexual Liberation, Alternative Media, Avant-garde art and music all of these things would have happened with or without the Vietnam War, but the War served as a central and uniting theme of counterculture. Vietnam did not define these things, Vietnam itself was defined by them.
Even if the war illicited mixed emotions as people sent their children off to fight, the counterculture movement was most decidedly expressed in generational divides. The GI Generation mom, may have been against sending her son to war, but she wasn't exactly ready to embrace free love, LSD and Hippies.
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And I'm offended, BTW, by the "rise to the occasion" remark. My DH and two of my brothers served in Vietnam. I can assure you they saw the horrors of war. And what they "rose to" was being there for their buddies. THAT is what Vietnam was really about. ANY Vietnam Vet will tell you that.
I was expressing the very real and accurate sentiment of the leaders of the establishment, it was not taken as a direct attack on anyone. My father was regular Army and served three tours. My mother lost a brother in Vietnam and another was serving in the Navy at the time. I have a lot of personal connection to the war through my family and would never look down upon their service.
It is interesting to talk to my father about his opinions of the war. He was a Silent and career Army. His experience is very different from many who served. He feels it was a horribly managed war, but he felt he did his duty to his country. He feels the mistake was not letting the Army do its job and keep the units together. On his first tour, he was with all career Army. By the second tour his unit was 1/3 draftee with another 1/3 cycled out and replaced during his tour. By his third tour, his entire unit was virtually composed of draftees. He never speaks ill of them other than to say, they had no business being there. They didn't see a higher purpose on what we were doing, it was all about doing your time and getting home alive. His experience on his third tour was vastly different than the first. I have found that his sentiments are carried by many Silent generation career military folks who served in Vietnam.
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And maybe, just maybe, protesting an illegal war and trying to stop it WAS rising to the occasion. Hmmmmm??
I addressed this earlier. The idea of protesting the actions of the government and the establishment was the spirit of the times. No one protested Korea and it was essentially a war fought for the same reasons. Look at a protest today against the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. They are not large or widespread and they are mainly attended by the same people who protested Vietnam. The difference is the view of the generations of the time. Silents and GI's saw fighting in Korea as their duty to the country. Gen-Xers can't be bothered to show up.
Our house didn't have any knock-down drag outs. (My father was a D-Day veteran who wouldn't talk about it.) But I sure knew a lot of families who did. I know his views were very conflicted. But he had as much respect for the son who had deferrents, stayed in school and protested the war, as he did for the two who volunteered to go over there. My brother's number was in the low 100's. If he hadn't kept his grades up he'd have gotten the "Greetings" letter.
My father knew there is, really, no glory in war. Just a lot of men and women who want to come home, marry their sweethearts, and get on with their lives.
Last edited by DewDropInn; 09-02-2011 at 11:55 AM..
Hey GOAT: You bet I don't take a dispassionate view of Vietnam. Too many friends with their names on The Wall in D.C. I don't apologize for it.
Vietnam IS what shaped us. It's in our very beings. It's just something in our gut that I don't think you can understand. Not saying you aren't smart. Because you are! But someone who wasn't a Boomer in that time just CAN'T get it. Understanding that period in our history is like trying to catch the wind.
Wink, wink.
And after a second reading of your post some of what you say is HIGHLY debatable. HIGHLY. But I think that belongs in the History forum. (I hate being the one told to get back on track by the Mods, lol.)
Last edited by DewDropInn; 09-02-2011 at 11:57 AM..
I am currently paying back student loans (and will be for many more years). The amount I pay towards my student loans every month is MORE than my mortgage and day care costs combined. Having that hanging over my head at the same time knowing that you can now buy a house on my street for $25,000 (same as what you could pay in 1971) which is nowhere near what I paid for mine, and knowing that my degree is pretty much worthless in this economy does make me kind of want to complain about the cost of education and paying back student loans.
I can certainly understand that.
The reason my son approached his education differently than his older Gen X step-siblings is b/c we all learned something between when the last of my stepchildren graduated (1996) and when my son started college (2002).
My stepkids were convinced that the only way they would "succeed in life" was to attend very expensive private Ivy League schools. We paid more for each of their educations (including living expenses) than we did for our last son's (and that includes paying for a car). But even tho we did that, we could not possibly have come up w/ the $$$ needed to put 4 kids thru/ colleges that cost us on average, per student, (all expenses, apartment, books, health insurance, clothing, food, transportation, etc) about $45K a year, so the kids took out student loans to help w/ the costs, wh/ they are all still paying on (except one son - his is paid off now).
I had said at the time that I thought it was a questionable decision to spend all that money on college degrees that could have been attained at instate tuition costs. We could have paid fully for our kids' educations and they wouldn't have had student loans if they had only chosen a state institution. The kids were insulted and very upset w/ that suggestion (wicked stepmother!) but interestingly, they have all said in years since - they wish they could do it over. They would have gone to state schools and had no student loans.
Of course, state tuition differs a lot from state to state. But here in NC, one can get a law degree from Carolina (reasonable tuition) or from Duke (high tuition). I guess some may feel the Duke degree is more prestigious, but either will qualify a person to sit for the bar, lol.
ETA: I am so sorry that this has been such a huge personal finance burden for you, num1, and for many others, as well. But you need to not devalue that hard-earned degree. It has value and it is something no one can ever take from you - you earned it. You should value it even more b/c you had to sacrifice for it (if not at the time, you surely are now).
Hubby is still paying for his doctoral degree. We wonder if he will live long enough to pay it off. But we dont regret paying one penny of it, even tho that has been money that could have been going into retirement funds. That degree is one reason he is still working today. Education really is an investment, even if one pays for it for many years.
Last edited by brokensky; 09-02-2011 at 11:47 AM..
One thing this theory does not consider is the growing trend of women having children at an older age. My parents were 41 when they had me, which was a bit more unusual at the time I was born. This means my family technically skipped a generation. With more women having children in their late 30's and 40's, this generation skipping will happen more in the coming decades. Maybe this helped me have a better relationship with my parents!
Because of this relationship, I feel the need to give a shout out to the Silent Generation. I saw some Boomer posts about helping women get in the workforce, but some women in the Silent Generation led the way. My mom was one of only two women working at a large corporation in her area when she graduated from college, and she was one of a relatively small number of women at the time to major in a science. So yay to the Silent Generation!
It does actually address that. See, your generation is not defined by who your parents were, which is kind of odd to think about. Your generation is defined by its response to the generation in power when you are young adults.
I broke this down in post #13, but it bears repeating.
"Generations" are bracketed into 20 year age groups; Child (0-20), Young Adult (20-40), Midlife (40-60) and Elder (60+). You can have a Gen-X person born to Silent parents, Boomer parents, or even Gen-X or GI parents. All that matters to define your generation is what group was dominantly in power when you reached your young adult years. Your generation serves as the response to that generation in power. In that way Boomers were the response to the Silents, Gen-X was the response to the Boomers and Millenials are the response to Gen-X.
From a parent/grandparent perspective, it also helps to define relationships. For instance, someone from Gen-X will tend to have values more in common with Silents than they do with Boomers or Millenials. Likewise, Boomers have more in common with GI's and Millenials than they do with Silents or Gen-X.
It's not hard to see. Think about the tone of conversations now. Boomers are the establishment, Gen-X is the culture. How many Boomers do you hear lamenting how things have changed and not for the better, but that share great hope for the future among the people now coming of age, the Millenials?
Hey GOAT: You bet I don't take a dispassionate view of Vietnam. Too many friends with their names on The Wall in D.C. I don't apologize for it.
Vietnam IS what shaped us. It's in our very beings. It's just something in our gut that I don't think you can understand. Not saying you aren't smart. Because you are. But someone who wasn't a Boomer in that time just CAN'T get it. Understanding that period in our history is like trying to catch the wind.
Wink, wink.
And after a second reading of your post some of what you say is HIGHLY debatable. HIGHLY. But I think that belongs in the History forum.
It most likely does belong in history versus here, though while anything is debatable, what I laid out is how the period is viewed from the eyes of historians and political scientists. I know, as a boomer those "establishment" guys don't know what the heck they are talking about, lol.
Anyway, without gettting too historical would you agree or disagree with the statement that the "times are defined by the people who live them"?
As I'm sure you know, I do agree with that statement. It seems you believe the opposite that the people are defined by the times.
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Originally Posted by DewDropInn
P.S. GOAT: Last night I asked my DH if he was a spoiled Boomer who got everything he wanted.
Had to pop his lower jaw back into place.
lol, it wasn't meant to be an absolute or indicative of being spoiled, I maybe took a little too much liberal license with that one.
It was more or less meant as a comparative to how the previous generations were raised. Boomers were MUCH more indulged then the Silents who were children during the Depression and WW2. Boomer "indulgence" as children is merely do to the fact that they were raised during a High.
It works like this:
Silents, overprotected children raised during a Crisis.
Boomers, overindulged children raised during a High.
Gen-X, underprotected children raised during an Awakening.
Millenials, increasingly protected children raised during an Unraveling.
Homelanders, overprotected children raised during a Crisis.
Each is in comparison to the previous one in an endless cycle.
Viet Nam shaped my feelings about government, the military establishment, politics, and esprit de corps . . . but the Beatles were the one biggest factor that affected my life's direction, as silly as that may sound.
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