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The thing is, highschools want to cover contemporary authors as well as the classics. That's where the issues arise. Also, the classics were mostly written by what the director of Undergraduate Advising at the U of WA called "DeWMs": Dead White Males (pronounced: "dooms", in case you missed it). No diversity. Some of the African authors are quite good. There are plenty of good authors outside of the classics.
Many fair points Ruth. I agree with all that you said in the above paragraph.but we should still keep some of the "dooms" of course in addition to including many authors, like African authors. Yes, diversity should be considered as well as authors outside of the classics. Excellent consideration that could enrich our world view to be sure. Sadly, outside of the classics, many folks will get their panties in a bunch over the more contemporary authors. We still have Puritans here!
But yeah, your points are very fair and I should have expanded my recs beyond the "Dooms." I will defer to the director of the Undergraduate Advisors. Knows a lot more about literature than I do.
Many fair points Ruth. I agree with all that you said in the above paragraph.but we should still keep some of the "dooms" of course in addition to including many authors, like African authors. Yes, diversity should be considered as well as authors outside of the classics. Excellent consideration that could enrich our world view to be sure. Sadly, outside of the classics, many folks will get their panties in a bunch over the more contemporary authors. We still have Puritans here!
But yeah, your points are very fair and I should have expanded my recs beyond the "Dooms." I will defer to the director of the Undergraduate Advisors. Knows a lot more about literature than I do.
Well, the head of advising had some influence over the setting of academic standards, I had the impression.
Contemporary authors don't have to ruffle Puritan feathers. IMO there's enough choice to avoid that, but again; it takes time and effort to sift through the work of contemporary authors to find appropriate material. Among Native American authors, N. Scott Momaday is considered a "classic" at this point, for example. Only one of his books has sex in it, and the only reason is, that the publisher basically held a gun to his head, telling him he signed a contract with them, so they call the shots! Needless to say, that was a learning experience for him, on vetting publishers, and having a lawyer review contracts before signing.
But as I mentioned earlier, contemporary authors also tend to offer violence-free literature as well, if you look through their corpus of work, while covering the same themes as the more stomach-churning selections present.
Really, there's no reason literature courses should turn students off to literature, or scar them for life. The goal is to teach students appreciation for literary art, not to simply force them to read a certain number of novels per year. You can't develop an appreciation for literature if you can barely keep up with the lengthy reading assignments while struggling through potentially trauma-inducing scenes.
I agree that there are some books that are not appropriate and are of little value. But keep in mind that kids today have seen graphic violence and porn from very tender ages on the net. You'd be shocked. Of course they don't share this with their parents and other adults in their environment. You ain't shielding them from much
Sooo, maybe for the most part, absent absolute dreck, stick to the classics selected down through the ages. They have stood the test of time. For a reason. IMO, I would put my money on the English teachers selecting the best books for their students rather than the choices of the parents.
And also, some parents need to get lives and leave the teaching to the teachers. Enough hovering. Maybe some benign neglect would be in order....
I have two graduate degrees in English Literature. My undergraduate degree in English Literature is from the top public university in the nation.
I have taught college English classes for many years at highly regarded and well known colleges and universities.
I have confidence that I am as knowledgeable and capable in regard to the subject matter as my daughter’s teachers, if not more so.
Furthermore, it is not “hovering” to be aware of what my daughter is learning in school. It is my duty and my responsibility. The development of her moral character is my responsibility.
Your snippy comments about being “puritanical” are also off the mark. Why should my 15 year old daughter be made to read about gay sex positions? How does that shape her character? Make her a better person? Increase her intelligence? It does not.
BTW, the class is now over for the year. My daughter earned a 94.
I have two graduate degrees in English Literature. My undergraduate degree in English Literature is from the top public university in the nation.
I have taught college English classes for many years at highly regarded and well known colleges and universities.
I have confidence that I am as knowledgeable and capable in regard to the subject matter as my daughter’s teachers, if not more so.
Furthermore, it is not “hovering” to be aware of what my daughter is learning in school. It is my duty and my responsibility. The development of her moral character is my responsibility.
Your snippy comments about being “puritanical” are also off the mark. Why should my 15 year old daughter be made to read about gay sex positions? How does that shape her character? Make her a better person? Increase her intelligence? It does not.
BTW, the class is now over for the year. My daughter earned a 94.
Hear, hear! Or at least, if not pleasant and entertaining, at least--absent graphic, horrific violence. I discovered some years ago, that one of the authors we read, whose novel involved a graphically-described murder and the perpetrator's grizzly attempt to destroy the evidence, had written other work, including a short story, that dealt with the same themes of social inequities, but without the violence. In short story form, it was easily digestible, which meant one could actually appreciate the writing style, which was lost in the longer works, because students were struggling just to keep up with the lengthy reading assignments. The story was actually a pleasure to read, an experience that was not part of the highschool literature courses.
We had a discussion here a year or two ago, about how highschool literature teachers rarely select work that's age-appropriate. Someone said, they were given a book to read in freshman or sophomore year, that they were assigned again in their senior year, because they were told they were too young to be able to understand it as young teens. When I looked it up, I found an article by a university professor, who said he found, that even undergrad students were too young to be able to understand it. He dropped it from his undergrad lit courses, and only assigned it to graduate students thereafter.
I think this was part of the problem, and possibly still is, in highschool lit courses, part of the reason many students feel lost, and get turned off to fiction. Another reason is the scenes of violence. Doesn't anyone ever write any inspiring, ultimately upbeat novels?
I agree. Many of the books seem to be chosen from the least interesting, most boring, choices out there. How many schools will assign Airport or Andromeda Strain? They are solid reads. Just a tad bit of sex and violence, but nothing graphic. Slightly dates in technology, but good story lines. Or how about Centennial? Or even Harry Potter? My youngest was devouring the full size Harry Potter books by 3rd grade. He read Percy Jackson which led to a love of history and geography which he majored in college. You never know where good books can lead. But instead students get 19th century Victorian English romance which is pretty much guaranteed to bore the boys in class to death.
How about 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea? It's from the 19th century French, but has an exciting story line. There is just so much good stuff, why lit classes pick the boring stuff is beyond me. Even Shakespeare can be made exciting if done properly and they pick something other than Romeo and Juliet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by calgirlinnc
I have two graduate degrees in English Literature. My undergraduate degree in English Literature is from the top public university in the nation.
I have taught college English classes for many years at highly regarded and well known colleges and universities.
I have confidence that I am as knowledgeable and capable in regard to the subject matter as my daughter’s teachers, if not more so.
Furthermore, it is not “hovering” to be aware of what my daughter is learning in school. It is my duty and my responsibility. The development of her moral character is my responsibility.
Your snippy comments about being “puritanical” are also off the mark. Why should my 15 year old daughter be made to read about gay sex positions? How does that shape her character? Make her a better person? Increase her intelligence? It does not.
BTW, the class is now over for the year. My daughter earned a 94.
Great comments. I do believe some teachers like shocking "puritanical" parents because it lets them feel intellectually superior to those "uneducated" parents.
I agree. Many of the books seem to be chosen from the least interesting, most boring, choices out there. How many schools will assign Airport or Andromeda Strain? They are solid reads. Just a tad bit of sex and violence, but nothing graphic. Slightly dates in technology, but good story lines. Or how about Centennial? Or even Harry Potter? My youngest was devouring the full size Harry Potter books by 3rd grade. He read Percy Jackson which led to a love of history and geography which he majored in college. You never know where good books can lead. But instead students get 19th century Victorian English romance which is pretty much guaranteed to bore the boys in class to death.
How about 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea? It's from the 19th century French, but has an exciting story line. There is just so much good stuff, why lit classes pick the boring stuff is beyond me. Even Shakespeare can be made exciting if done properly and they pick something other than Romeo and Juliet.
Great comments. I do believe some teachers like shocking "puritanical" parents because it lets them feel intellectually superior to those "uneducated" parents.
I was a huge Jules Verne fan as a tween, in my personal reading selections! Unfortunately, we weren't assigned Verne in HS French class.
In HS, while I was struggling through grisly murder scenes and other depressing topics, my friends in other schools were reading Tolkien. I suspect the lit teachers at my school didn't consider his work to be "real" literature, but more in the genre of fairy tales, i.e. children's lit. So, maybe that's why Harry Potter isn't assigned.
Last edited by Ruth4Truth; 01-15-2023 at 08:06 AM..
Great comments. I do believe some teachers like shocking "puritanical" parents because it lets them feel intellectually superior to those "uneducated" parents.
This is nonsense! Who chooses literature for students based on how they expect their parents to react? Although who knows what motivates the literature selections of some teachers these days. It does sound like some are trying to be overly trendy, rather than putting a priority on cultivating an appreciation and understanding of literature per se.
How about 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea? It's from the 19th century French, but has an exciting story line. There is just so much good stuff, why lit classes pick the boring stuff is beyond me. Even Shakespeare can be made exciting if done properly and they pick something other than Romeo and Juliet.
My daughter taught Macbeth around Halloween and it was a big hit!
I was a huge Jules Verne fan as a tween, in my personal reading selections! Unfortunately, we weren't assigned Verne in HS French class.
In HS, while I was struggling through grisly murder scenes and other depressing topics, my friends in other schools were reading Tolkien. I suspect the lit teachers at my school didn't consider his work to be "real" literature, but more in the genre of fairy tales, i.e. children's lit. So, maybe that's why Harry Potter isn't assigned.
I wasn't assigned Verne either. I "discovered" him by accident. The local grocery store had a promotion one year where if you bought so many groceries in a month you got a free novel of the month. 20,000 Leagues was the first one they gave out. She also picked up Treasure Island, Tom Sawyer, Swiss Family Robinson, and the rest of Verne. What a concept -- the grocery store giving out novels as a promotion instead of a loyalty card!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth
This is nonsense! Who chooses literature for students based on how they expect their parents to react? Although who knows what motivates the literature selections of some teachers these days. It does sound like some are trying to be overly trendy, rather than putting a priority on cultivating an appreciation and understanding of literatureper se.
Great question. I never understood most of what they picked for us or for my kids. Though given the thread we've read in the Education forum about porn, I'm really not sure what motivates some teachers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by YorktownGal
My daughter taught Macbeth around Halloween and it was a big hit!
Funny thing. We read Romeo and Juliet twice in high school. Then we got a lit teacher who really understood Shakespeare and read Macbeth, Othello, and Henry V. I was hooked and most of the boys really got into those plays. My loved those as well. So much my son tried to get the theater teacher to do either Macbeth or Henry V for the spring play.
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Needless to say, that was a learning experience for him, on vetting publishers, and having a lawyer review contracts before signing.
