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To the point where their parents are un(der)employed due to generations of de-industrialization, a challenged school system and the preponderance of gainfully employable jobs moving or settling in locations inconvenient at best to SEPTA does resolve in a shrunken tax base, their frustration filters down to their kids.
Stereotype much?
Glad we agree on that much.
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However, the topic at hand has nothing to do with white flight or bigotry to people of color.
Actually it does, but I'll let you finish...
I agree that people having children they aren't in a position to raise with their own income is an issue. And there is a stereotype that such people do so to receive government assistance without having to work (much). I would say that it's not necessarily as simple as that. IMO you're looking at the ground level while there's a 50,000 foot-level view of the history and psychology that has played out over the last 50-60 years. There was a time when poor/working-class African-Americans were as law-abiding as anyone; they had to be as "existing while Black" was ground for proto-stop-and-frisk, being thrown in jail on trumped-up charges, or worse. The end of redlining (and Rizzo, locally) accelerated White flight into the suburbs. Technology and outsourcing hit all blue collar factory workers hard but especially the disproportionate Black labor force among them. That indeed led to a shrunken tax base that has only begun to rebound over the last twenty years albeit not so much for the benefit of the Black community who often find their communities the target of gentrification as the rise in their rents and property taxes make it cost-prohibitive to stay. Those who remain become increasingly frustrated with limited opportunities as I discussed at the beginning of my response - or perhaps they are too busy working multiple low paying jobs to stay afloat - that their kids sense their frustration or otherwise fall through the cracks.
So no, I don't condone criminal behavior by anyone. But when it comes to poorer people of color, I can trace how it came to be. Treating the symptoms without agreeing on the disease won't work. We already tried that with "Operation Safe Streets"; without a jobs, education, and community involvement component, that quasi-martial law effort was doomed to fail. And so IMO would efforts to sterilize or otherwise penalize poor people who choose to have kids they may admittedly not be prepared to raise.
To offer one other 50,000-foot-level item on the other side of the scale:
I think that African-American society and culture experienced a train wreck we're still reluctant to talk about in the 1970s, when "black authenticity" and street values and culture got conflated and middle-class values and culture got labeled somehow inauthentically black.
We now live in a time when on the one hand, celebrations of black achievement and excellence abound in both African-American and mainstream media, and on the other, young black men especially who display bookish tendencies still get teased for "acting white" in some (emphasis on some) black circles.
Even with the celebrations, we haven't yet mended the hole that linkage blew in the middle of the fabric of lower- and lower-middle-class African-American society. If you ever watched the series "Roc," you know that different and better models of working-class black life exist, but they still seem to me to get downplayed.
To offer one other 50,000-foot-level item on the other side of the scale:
I think that African-American society and culture experienced a train wreck we're still reluctant to talk about in the 1970s, when "black authenticity" and street values and culture got conflated and middle-class values and culture got labeled somehow inauthentically black.
We now live in a time when on the one hand, celebrations of black achievement and excellence abound in both African-American and mainstream media, and on the other, young black men especially who display bookish tendencies still get teased for "acting white" in some (emphasis on some) black circles.
Even with the celebrations, we haven't yet mended the hole that linkage blew in the middle of the fabric of lower- and lower-middle-class African-American society. If you ever watched the series "Roc," you know that different and better models of working-class black life exist, but they still seem to me to get downplayed.
I get what you're saying. Some inadvertently self-inflicted wounds, to be sure. Besides the rebound in celebrating achievement as you note, there is the emergence of the "blerd" (black nerd) culture. Not to say that blerding out and academic achievement go hand in hand but there can be some significant crossover.
"Roc" was a great show. We could use more like it today. Black-ish, to a degree is an updated version of "The Cosby Show", for better or worse. But I digress...
"There was a time when poor/working-class African-Americans were as law-abiding as anyone; they had to be as "existing while Black" was ground for proto-stop-and-frisk",
I may be confused but isnt being law abiding a facet that most should strive for regardless ? Also its interesting that you mention the psychology of last 50-60 years, this coincides with an arguement that I have made that welfare dependency (which largely began in the 60's) has ruined many families as that its too easy for people to simply not work, and/or no pressure to have a 2 parent household because the goverment check covers what a spouse generally would. There are some interesting articles about this that some may want to explore.
"There was a time when poor/working-class African-Americans were as law-abiding as anyone; they had to be as "existing while Black" was ground for proto-stop-and-frisk",
I may be confused but isnt being law abiding a facet that most should strive for regardless ? Also its interesting that you mention the psychology of last 50-60 years, this coincides with an argument that I have made that welfare dependency (which largely began in the 60's) has ruined many families as that its too easy for people to simply not work, and/or no pressure to have a 2 parent household because the government check covers what a spouse generally would. There are some interesting articles about this that some may want to explore.
I was trying not to delve but so deeply as to not derail the general thread.
Desperate people make desperate decisions. This happens in Appalachia but it doesn't make the news like it does in large urban centers like Philadelphia.
There are also stories about how the "man in the house" rule where families living in public housing where the father was required to leave if he couldn't find work - at a time when businesses were reluctant to comply with the employment requirements of the Civil Rights Act - or else the family would not be eligible to receive public assistance.
I suppose it comes down to what one believes is the predominant factor (as all have some level of merit): White/middle-class flight post-redlining combining with the later suburbanization, automation and outsourcing of jobs resulting in a shrunken tax base in which to invest in schools...or a reliance on government assistance.
I have a mixed race family (nuclear and of course inlaws) so I have insight beyond the media, and frankly motivation to see everyone succeed. This being said it just seems like the lower economic tier is getting worse (behavior wise) and many of the things you have pointed out (redlining and such) were actually worse decades back. It just seems the lack of two parent households has to be the main focal point. From a study I read in the early 60's there were roughly 25% of AA children born out of wedlock, now days its about 75% and with these kids now having no fear of police, teachers etc (and only one parent to delve our discipline at home) I think its a receipe for disaster.
PS-I only give my family background because sometimes I can be direct about these topics, and my interests are truly with best intentions and not to troll.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FindingZen
I was trying not to delve but so deeply as to not derail the general thread.
Desperate people make desperate decisions. This happens in Appalachia but it doesn't make the news like it does in large urban centers like Philadelphia.
There are also stories about how the "man in the house" rule where families living in public housing where the father was required to leave if he couldn't find work - at a time when businesses were reluctant to comply with the employment requirements of the Civil Rights Act - or else the family would not be eligible to receive public assistance.
I suppose it comes down to what one believes is the predominant factor (as all have some level of merit): White/middle-class flight post-redlining combining with the later suburbanization, automation and outsourcing of jobs resulting in a shrunken tax base in which to invest in schools...or a reliance on government assistance.
I have a mixed race family (nuclear and of course inlaws) so I have insight beyond the media, and frankly motivation to see everyone succeed. This being said it just seems like the lower economic tier is getting worse (behavior wise) and many of the things you have pointed out (redlining and such) were actually worse decades back. It just seems the lack of two parent households has to be the main focal point. From a study I read in the early 60's there were roughly 25% of AA children born out of wedlock, now days its about 75% and with these kids now having no fear of police, teachers etc (and only one parent to delve our discipline at home) I think its a receipe for disaster.
PS-I only give my family background because sometimes I can be direct about these topics, and my interests are truly with best intentions and not to troll.
Understood, and I've never thought of your comments as trolling.
And the stats about out-of-wedlock births and single-parent households do inform a lot of the thinking about factors contributing to criminal behavior - on both left and right, though the Right tends to emphasize them more.
I have a mixed race family (nuclear and of course inlaws) so I have insight beyond the media, and frankly motivation to see everyone succeed. This being said it just seems like the lower economic tier is getting worse (behavior wise) and many of the things you have pointed out (redlining and such) were actually worse decades back. It just seems the lack of two parent households has to be the main focal point. From a study I read in the early 60's there were roughly 25% of AA children born out of wedlock, now days its about 75% and with these kids now having no fear of police, teachers etc (and only one parent to delve our discipline at home) I think its a receipe for disaster.
PS-I only give my family background because sometimes I can be direct about these topics, and my interests are truly with best intentions and not to troll.
Thanks for taking the time to share some of your background.
Redlining isn't so much of an issue today, especially not in the city proper. That's been replaced by gentrification.
I'm not disagreeing with you that having both parents in a household would help; I just don't believe that's the main issue unless one is trying to treat immediate symptoms. Also, there are absentee parents who stay involved in their kids' lives. It's probably hard to find data to prove whether that's the rule rather than the exception.
Ultimately, I'm trying to add a different perspective to the idea that there is some inherent tendency of poor people of color to act irresponsibly when there are factors that led to making desperately bad decisions. That trickles out to perceptions of middle-class+ people of color who (aspire to) move into affluent communities and the sense that "too many" will cause crime or otherwise depress home values.
I was trying not to delve but so deeply as to not derail the general thread.
Desperate people make desperate decisions. This happens in Appalachia but it doesn't make the news like it does in large urban centers like Philadelphia.
There are also stories about how the "man in the house" rule where families living in public housing where the father was required to leave if he couldn't find work - at a time when businesses were reluctant to comply with the employment requirements of the Civil Rights Act - or else the family would not be eligible to receive public assistance.
I suppose it comes down to what one believes is the predominant factor (as all have some level of merit): White/middle-class flight post-redlining combining with the later suburbanization, automation and outsourcing of jobs resulting in a shrunken tax base in which to invest in schools...or a reliance on government assistance.
Well, you certainly give good historical background in both of your posts on this thread. Unfortunately, you fail to offer any actual present-day solutions that will address this massive and unsustainable problem.
You asked the following: I suppose it comes down to what one believes is the predominant factor (as all have some level of merit): White/middle-class flight post-redlining combining with the later suburbanization, automation and outsourcing of jobs resulting in a shrunken tax base in which to invest in schools...or a reliance on government assistance.
No, it does not come down to "what one believes is the predominant factor." One possible solution (fewer unwanted children) is currently possible. The other topic (white flight/reduced tax base and thus underfunded city schools) occurred decades ago and thus, unless we have a time machine, is not possible to change at the root. My points are not intended to assign blame, they are intended to offer solutions to one of the biggest drains on society in our country today. And to your point above, this is not a race thing. I have the same viewpoint in West Virginia and Appalachia that I do in urban areas.
Well, you certainly give good historical background in both of your posts on this thread. Unfortunately, you fail to offer any actual present-day solutions that will address this massive and unsustainable problem.
You asked the following: I suppose it comes down to what one believes is the predominant factor (as all have some level of merit): White/middle-class flight post-redlining combining with the later suburbanization, automation and outsourcing of jobs resulting in a shrunken tax base in which to invest in schools...or a reliance on government assistance.
No, it does not come down to "what one believes is the predominant factor." One possible solution (fewer unwanted children) is currently possible. The other topic (white flight/reduced tax base and thus underfunded city schools) occurred decades ago and thus, unless we have a time machine, is not possible to change at the root. My points are not intended to assign blame, they are intended to offer solutions to one of the biggest drains on society in our country today. And to your point above, this is not a race thing. I have the same viewpoint in West Virginia and Appalachia that I do in urban areas.
Fair enough that you're consistent with the class of people rather than race. I wasn't pointing anyone out here as I haven't delved that deep into the crime thread. But I'm familiar enough with the usual context in other Philly-centric social media to understand potential hidden meanings.
The "easy" thing to do would be to prescribe individual responsibility by having fewer kids but it doesn't address making up for the past make up for the responsibility in investment and commitment that needs to be made on a regional, state or even national level. It would include:
An investment into infrastructure to repair blighted neighborhoods while protecting the residents from being forced out by market-based gentrification.
Turning schools effectively into community centers offering childcare before and after classes, evening GED programs for adults, and weekend night activities for kids.
Offering tax incentives for manufacturing companies to return to the city.
Having said companies work with CCP and other area community colleges to offer relevant training. In the case that CCP would become overcrowded with aspiring tradespeople, offer SEPTA shuttles to the suburban community colleges to take up the slack.
On a similar note, offer express shuttle buses from the city to retail hotspots in the suburbs and exurbs where there is a chronic shortage of workers.
Needless to say, the city couldn't afford a bond to take all of that on by itself. It would be a hard sales job on Bucks, Montco, Delco and Chester on how helping Philly would benefit them too. Governor Wolf would be hard-pressed to make such a bold proposal to a majority legislature that has disdain for the city. The only piece the current White House might agree with are the tax incentives to manufacturing companies as that's already being supported through their version of opportunity zones. Unlike the previous version many of us are aware of, I'm not so sure that this iteration is for the benefit of local residents. But I digress.
Obviously I am not a policymaker so I don't know how to flesh out the details of how all these concepts are supposed to work. Some (or many) may say we don't have the money to do it...but we find the money to do other things as a country so IMO it's a matter of will and philosophy.
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