Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
The citizens of Pittsburgh, PA, voted soundly against closing Three Rivers Stadium (a dual-purpose facility) and having separate facilities built for baseball's Pirates and football's Steelers. Guess what. They now have Heinz Field and PNC Park. Here's the most amazing part. THEY LOVE IT. They voted against it, but ask them now and they will deny their opposition and tell you how great their two facilities are (which is true, they are among the best in the country and they have been a huge economic boon to the City of Pittsburgh).
One of the reasons we elect people to represent us in government is so that they can study issues closer and make good decisions not based on knee-jerk themes like "all tax cuts are good." What's good for a state in the long run is quite often not obvious to a public with short-sighted views and limited understanding of economics.
It's an ethical matter not about what someone personally likes. I'm an avid hockey fan. My favorite team plays in a city that could not give its citizens water but gave a few hundred million to a guy that could literally write a check for a new arena. Stadiums are a scam and taxes should never fund a private project for the rich.
Stadiums are a scam and taxes should never fund a private project for the rich.
The best (and I'm being sarcastic) is when the owners agree to pay a certain amount (that's say half or less, for argument's sake) for a new arena/stadium for their team, and in reality they just use naming rights money and personal seat licenses to fund their part. It's a classic move when owners say, sure I'll spend X amount of my "own money" on the new stadium/arena, when in reality they will be spending little to none of their own money.
There's a reason sports owners are rich and it's not because they throw out hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars of their own on new venues when the tax payer will help them out. They are very shrewd business people. I think if tax payers help pay for a new stadium/arena and there is a naming rights deal (which usually always happens), that money should be used to pay down the tax payers debt portion. I know it would never happen, but one can dream.
It's an ethical matter not about what someone personally likes. I'm an avid hockey fan. My favorite team plays in a city that could not give its citizens water but gave a few hundred million to a guy that could literally write a check for a new arena. Stadiums are a scam and taxes should never fund a private project for the rich.
Is it really a tax break for the rich because we choose it to be or because of the economic benefits we receive in return for the benefit of having the stadium in place? Sure, Westgate is a boondoggle that was painfully incorrect in almost every facet, and that is a reality that Glendale will have to deal with for a long time, and of course since Weiers decided to propound the issue it will get even worse for them.
But an investment in a stadium yields returns, Westgate functions, almost but not entirely, exclusively because the Coyotes were able to help it along by attracting fans. Westgates failure has little to do with the Coyotes more than it has to do with poor legislation and policy by a city council that is clearly too inept to be holding office. But I don't live in Glendale so I can't do anything about that.
Besides do you really think LeBlanc has this account with all of this income where he could just "write a check" and have the stadium built and kapeesh his omnibenevolence and generosity allowed us this stadium and an economic area around it? Rich people don't hold their money in some liquidated reserve.
I think everybody agrees with the principle, but this isn't practical or realistic.
If they want to move the stadium, let THEM pay for it for once. Arizona can't fund its schools, but they will find a few hundred million of our dollars to buy a stadium for some billionaires and the millionaires that play games there.
What?$! You don't want to subsidize for a bunch of foreigners to play hockey in the desert?
Some interesting factoids. ONE of the 16 forwards was born in the USA (St. Louis). ONE out of 9 defenseman/goalies were born in USA citizens (see Coyotes Roster - Arizona Coyotes - Team ). The entire ownership is from Canada. In fairness, this is pretty typical all around the NHL. In short, there is nothing Arizona about the Coyotes other than they play 1/2 of their games here. Don't get me wrong, I like to watching world class athletes and I enjoy attending a game a year (via Stub Hub). But I'm not naive enough to actually think they are remotely associated with Arizona. If the owners can get a better deal in another state, they will (if the NHL will let them). I won't be howling in the crowd pretending they are "my" team. Because they are not Arizona's team (only by name). Anyone who thinks otherwise is in pretend land. I wrote this last paragraph not to take anything away from a player from the Czech Republic. But rather don't cry if they leave and certainly don't let politicians spend your money to climb in bed with the owners or to get political backing from associated businesses that have a vested interest to keep them here.
So if they leave because no one here is willing to subsidize these owners that are worth hundreds of millions, I say don't let the door them in the arse. If they have a viable business model without a stupid city subsiding them (Glendale) then I hope they stay.
Just wanted to point out that the players and staff pay massive amounts of tax dollars to AZ no matter where they are from. And players playing here pay State income tax as well for the time they are in AZ. 30 multi-million dollar incomes would be missed in any city. And many give back to the community. There is much more to it than just the upfront money for an arena. Not saying I think Phoenix should build an arena but there is more to a City than just infrastructure.
Is it really a tax break for the rich because we choose it to be or because of the economic benefits we receive in return for the benefit of having the stadium in place? Sure, Westgate is a boondoggle that was painfully incorrect in almost every facet, and that is a reality that Glendale will have to deal with for a long time, and of course since Weiers decided to propound the issue it will get even worse for them.
But an investment in a stadium yields returns, Westgate functions, almost but not entirely, exclusively because the Coyotes were able to help it along by attracting fans. Westgates failure has little to do with the Coyotes more than it has to do with poor legislation and policy by a city council that is clearly too inept to be holding office. But I don't live in Glendale so I can't do anything about that.
Besides do you really think LeBlanc has this account with all of this income where he could just "write a check" and have the stadium built and kapeesh his omnibenevolence and generosity allowed us this stadium and an economic area around it? Rich people don't hold their money in some liquidated reserve.
I think everybody agrees with the principle, but this isn't practical or realistic.
With all due respect, do you honestly still believe all the jive about stadium economic benefits? I thought that fairy tail had been discredited (well except for team owners and a few select related business interests) some years ago.
I understand the confusion. Leagues, owners and related businesses have done an outstanding job perpetuating the myth. Government agencies as well. There's plenty of evidence that the money just doesn't pencil out if you're willing to examine the facts. By facts, I mean independent analysis, not proclamations by vested interests. It's only a Google away.
Listen, I love going to events in nice venues. If that's something the community feels it wants to support, great, but do not mistake it for anything more than what it is. A publically subsidized asset for a private entity with little, if any, economic return. Private gain at public expense.
With all due respect, do you honestly still believe all the jive about stadium economic benefits? I thought that fairy tail had been discredited (well except for team owners and a few select related business interests) some years ago.
I understand the confusion. Leagues, owners and related businesses have done an outstanding job perpetuating the myth. Government agencies as well. There's plenty of evidence that the money just doesn't pencil out if you're willing to examine the facts. By facts, I mean independent analysis, not proclamations by vested interests. It's only a Google away.
Listen, I love going to events in nice venues. If that's something the community feels it wants to support, great, but do not mistake it for anything more than what it is. A publically subsidized asset for a private entity with little, if any, economic return. Private gain at public expense.
I don't see any analysis to the contrary provided? I provided a documented example that was fought for on television in front of city council for a flailing Entertainment district that provides more tax revenue then was paid through the management contract. Westgate will survive, that area will grow and Tanger has done a decent job of attracting people, Dave and Busters will help. That Casino won't but that's another topic.
You questioned it and posted a bunch re worded platitudes...
I won't be howling in the crowd pretending they are "my" team. Because they are not Arizona's team (only by name). Anyone who thinks otherwise is in pretend land.
I hope Im on the right track with my response here. If not, I apologize.
Here's the thing... AZ is growing. People from all over Canada, the Upper Midwest, East Coast, PacNW are moving here in droves. Several ice rinks have popped up all over the Valley, and all those people relocating here from hockey-crazy states and/or provinces, are bringing their talent with them. It wont be too long before there will be some decent home-grown talent here in PHX. It just takes time, and you need to give it time before the Yotes will have signed some natives to their roster.
And in all honesty, I cant really think of a single professional sports team in the world that is comprised solely/mostly of natives. The only time you really see that is during the Olympics, World Cup, etc. So basically, all the teams in the NFL, MLS, MLB, NHL, etc, are not really any one specific cities' team.
I don't see any analysis to the contrary provided? I provided a documented example that was fought for on television in front of city council for a flailing Entertainment district that provides more tax revenue then was paid through the management contract. Westgate will survive, that area will grow and Tanger has done a decent job of attracting people, Dave and Busters will help. That Casino won't but that's another topic.
You questioned it and posted a bunch re worded platitudes...
If you have a legitimate concern or curiosity you'll do your own research, don't ask me to spoon feed what is easily accessible.
If you really don't much care or are part of the beneficiaries of the subsidies, then it really doesn't matter what I or anyone else can put forward. Facts remain that public stadium investment and subsidies seldom, if ever offer an offsetting economic benefit.
Again, don't mistake my pointing this out as a hatred for sports, teams or anything else other than a distaste for disingenuous information being offered as fact. As long as the folks footing the bill know what they're getting into, everything is swell.
The land being looked at near ASU, from what I hear is at Karsten golf course (ASU is moving the golf team to Papago). This is within the ASU athletic facility district. ASU is using land sales/leases to developers of land within this area to fund athletic facility projects (for instance some adjoining Karsten land could be sold to developers of hotels/offices etc). I think this is somewhat of a weak location, I would prefer it to be near a light rail stop if it goes in Tempe. Downtown Tempe would be a solid location as there is already enough parking for a theoretical sell out of 20,000 fans or so maximum, so no additional parking garages or surface parking may be needed, but at Karsten you would need to build some garages. It seems partnering with ASU would be the best solution to avoid charging the taxpayers (ASU hockey also received a $32 Million private donation), which is of course why it is being explored as Downtown Phoenix is a better location otherwise.
I don't see no tax payer involvement if it were to be built at ASU's campus. Ultimately, it will involve tax payer dollars to some degree. While it's location may be better than Glendale, it's not ideal. I think you would face many of the same problems that Glendale had. The Tempe location would still isolate the West Valley and North Phoenix fan base. I also think the whole "All their fans are in the East Valley" is a bit overhyped. Yes relative to the West Valley, there are more fans in the East Valley but you cannot sell out a 17,000 stadium nightly with east valley fans alone.
I still remember attending Cardinals games on a Sunday no less and the parking and access to Tempe was a nightmare. And this was in 2005 when the Cardinals were unpopular and they had all the major freeway access they do now. It was still hard to get to the games and parking was inadequate. Hockey is a fringe sport in the Valley and people including East Valley residents are not going to wade through 30 minutes of traffic as they approach Tempe just to park and attend the game. With downtown Phoenix, it is extremely convenient. Once you reach downtown, parking is plentiful and with multiple access points to downtown Phoenix, it makes getting in and out much easier. And for a fringe sport like hockey, your casual fan needs convenient access to make it worth their while. And a lot of the fanbase will need to be converts from casual fan to diehard. That's just the reality here so convenience has to be the priority.
Plus a lot of professional sports involves the business community. Luxury boxes, suites etc involve corporations. A lot of the Valley's corporate executives, lawyers etc reside in the central Valley. It will be much easier to entice a a group of executives from the various companies to lease a box if they can immediately attend games after work. That's usually how it works in many cities.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
