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I live in Saskatoon which is a hockey hotbed in Canada. I can't recall a single 1st overall pick from there. OF course AZ will never be Canada but it has a respectable program that is growing in both numbers and quality. Your 6% quote really is a joke when you have to go back to 1967 for the last example of a 1st overall draft pick that never played a game. As for the $20K a year to learn his trade, that's about roughly what every high end Canadian hockey kid pays each year to play hockey, the truth is none of them should be paying that much but parents are nuts. By the way Sherbrooke has produced just 6 NHL players with a sizeable career(0ver 100 NHL games) in the last 50 years. I bet AZ will equal that in the next 50 years. Austin Matthews will be a bigger impact player than any every from Sherbrooke. And Sidney Crosby moved to get better, is that the same slight on Canada??
[\QUOTE=MN-Born-n-Raised;42234501]Since you are from Canada, you know that AZ youth hockey isn't anything close to what it is up north. You were the one saying to watchout for a lone AZ player. Just because I point to a link doesn't mean I agree with every word. I linked my source that showed that being DRAFTED isn't playing in the NHL. It is a FACT that 6% of the #1 draft picks never played an NHL game in their life; I didn't make it up. If you want to call that disingenuous, fine. If you read what I said, I called him World Class and said it is highly probable he will play in the NHL (94% 1st rounders will play in the NHL). But you have absolutely no idea what he will become; the jury is out.
Still, he did NOT gain his expertise locally as you claim. He spent $20K a year traveling to more competitive areas (I gave you the link). AZ is a loooooooooong way from CA in their hockey program. Simply count the rinks and follow the money. More often than not, the good players in hockey have parents with a buck in their pocket. It takes travel, camps, and a lot of development that costs $$'s. The price of entry costs $5K a year in MN and $20K in AZ because they lack talent (talent breads talent). In MN, there are subsidies (charitable gambling) that cut out $2K a year for youth. Heck, it costs a mere $200/year for high school students. They are on the ice every day and nearly every high school in MN has a program. If I heard my AZ transplant friend correctly (our kids played together a decade ago), there are zero high school hockey teams in AZ; only spread out club teams with luke warm players (but the parents are convinced they are all that). It's why you won't find intercity hockey players because it is a rich mans sport (but a lot of poor basketball players). California has more money, more people, and therefore a more successful program. Let me be blunt. AZ will never produce the same amount of players as in California . For that matter, in California they will never produce 8 kids on a single youth team drafted to the NHL. While we are at it, MN will never produce players such as Sherbrooke Canada (a massive Canadian hot bed of players).[/quote]
I live in Saskatoon which is a hockey hotbed in Canada. I can't recall a single 1st overall pick from there. OF course AZ will never be Canada but it has a respectable program that is growing in both numbers and quality. Your 6% quote really is a joke when you have to go back to 1967 for the last example of a 1st overall draft pick that never played a game. As for the $20K a year to learn his trade, that's about roughly what every high end Canadian hockey kid pays each year to play hockey, the truth is none of them should be paying that much but parents are nuts. By the way Sherbrooke has produced just 6 NHL players with a sizeable career(0ver 100 NHL games) in the last 50 years. I bet AZ will equal that in the next 50 years. Austin Matthews will be a bigger impact player than any every from Sherbrooke. And Sidney Crosby moved to get better, is that the same slight on Canada??
You are reading into my post too much. There has been a grand total of 54 1st round picks (and zero from AZ so far). Nearly all are from Canada. It is what it is. 6% never played pro (94% did). It happens to be a fact. So your Golden Child (and he is Golden) hasn't been drafted at #1 nor has he played a NHL game. We are ahead of ourselves.
Sidney Crosby didn't need to move to MN (Shattuck) in order to be a pro but in the end, a kid from AZ statistically has to. That is because in 2015, AZ hockey isn't competitive. We both know that. You cannot become a world class player playing against average teammates. His parents figured that out and he is where he is because of it.
Almost every kid who makes it to pro hockey moves to play at a higher level, that is just a fact. Sidney Crosby's peer group in Cole Harbour, NS was that much higher than that of most players playing in SoCal or AZ. It's nice to think that all Canadians play hockey and play it well but it's just a myth. And again when you have to use stats from 50 years ago to show the percentage you have kind of lost the point. No player drafted 1st overall in last 20 years has not had a decent NHL career(300 plus games). Matthews will follow that mold unless injury or illness are a factor.
You are reading into my post too much. There has been a grand total of 54 1st round picks (and zero from AZ so far). Nearly all are from Canada. It is what it is. 6% never played pro (94% did). It happens to be a fact. So your Golden Child (and he is Golden) hasn't been drafted at #1 nor has he played a NHL game. We are ahead of ourselves.
Sidney Crosby didn't need to move to MN (Shattuck) in order to be a pro but in the end, a kid from AZ statistically has to. That is because in 2015, AZ hockey isn't competitive. We both know that. You cannot become a world class player playing against average teammates. His parents figured that out and he is where he is because of it.
Almost every kid who makes it to pro hockey moves to play at a higher level, that is just a fact. Sidney Crosby's peer group in Cole Harbour, NS was that much higher than that of most players playing in SoCal or AZ. It's nice to think that all Canadians play hockey and play it well but it's just a myth. And again when you have to use stats from 50 years ago to show the percentage you have kind of lost the point. No player drafted 1st overall in last 20 years has not had a decent NHL career(300 plus games). Matthews will follow that mold unless injury or illness are a factor.
Most of our long paragraphs miss the main point. So let me summarize my point of view. Arizona hockey had (nearly) nothing to do with a potential #1 NHL draft choice. Your example succeeded in spite of growing up in AZ. Without massive amount of travel outside the AZ luke-warm caliber hockey, he was toast and probably on a great career playing baseball.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bates419
Almost every kid who makes it to pro hockey moves to play at a higher level, that is just a fact.
yes. But not so much in their development years. Hockey isn't like football. You can pick up football in the 8th grade and go far. Not so with hockey.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bates419
Sidney Crosby's peer group in Cole Harbour, NS was that much higher than that of most players playing in SoCal or AZ. .
Don't use Southern SoCal with AZ in the same sentence. An average MN high school hockey player will easily beat a peer AZ player. It's in the numbers. In the north, 300X more players are in Canada than in AZ. By that alone will yield far Superior results. Then take the amount of clinics, ide time, the cultre,etc. Night-day differences. I am not really sure why are are debating the obvious.
Last edited by MN-Born-n-Raised; 12-10-2015 at 10:30 AM..
Heisman is not being drafted 1st overall. Again in last 30 years there have been ZERO 1st overall NHL draft picks that have not had an NHL career. My point of view is that hockey is growing in the Valley. It started with the Coyotes and it is now becoming a respectable program. Austin Matthews is the first player that has been produced locally because of the Coyote influence. He will not be the last. We now have D1 NCAA hockey and it's being played by more kids every year. It will be a slow growth and not an explosion.
Edit: Canadian kids move away at 15 to play JR hockey, are those not the development years?? And travel hockey is huge in Canada at younger ages.
Most of our long paragraphs miss the main point. So let me summarize my point of view. Arizona hockey had (nearly) nothing to do with a potential #1 NHL draft choice. Your example succeeded in spite of growing up in AZ. Without massive amount of travel outside the AZ luke-warm caliber hockey, he was toast and probably on a great career playing baseball.
In the early 70's people were talking the same way about the entire US hockey program that you now talk of the AZ hockey program. They were wrong then and you are now. It's growing and will continue to grow. Developing an Austin Matthews will only make that system grow stronger and faster and other young AZ hockey kids have someone to look up to just as Nathan MacKinnon looked up to Crosby and dreamed of being just like him. Rome wasn't built in a day but it got done.
Most of our long paragraphs miss the main point. So let me summarize my point of view. Arizona hockey had (nearly) nothing to do with a potential #1 NHL draft choice. Your example succeeded in spite of growing up in AZ. Without massive amount of travel outside the AZ luke-warm caliber hockey, he was toast and probably on a great career playing baseball.
yes. But not so much in their development years. Hockey isn't like football. You can pick up football in the 8th grade and go far. Not so with hockey.
Don't use Southern SoCal with AZ in the same sentence. An average MN high school hockey player will easily beat a peer AZ player. It's in the numbers. In the north, 300X more players are in Canada than in AZ. By that alone will yield far Superior results. Then take the amount of clinics, ide time, the cultre,etc. Night-day differences. I am not really sure why are are debating the obvious.
Heisman is not being drafted 1st overall. Again in last 30 years there have been ZERO 1st overall NHL draft picks that have not had an NHL career. My point of view is that hockey is growing in the Valley. It started with the Coyotes and it is now becoming a respectable program. Austin Matthews is the first player that has been produced locally because of the Coyote influence. He will not be the last. We now have D1 NCAA hockey and it's being played by more kids every year. It will be a slow growth and not an explosion.
Edit: Canadian kids move away at 15 to play JR hockey, are those not the development years?? And travel hockey is huge in Canada at younger ages.
As another reminder, he isn't a #1 draft choice. He might be. But you are talking as if it was a fact.
Traveling hockey is big in MN too. We "traveled" at most 2 hours to Duluth. 90% of the time, you travel under 30 minutes and play one of the 50 teams your own age group. The 15 roster A team battled a spot out of the 100+ at try outs. It's not like Canada where towns are spread across the country.
With that said, how many youth hockey players try out again in AZ? The gene pool rules are in place: the more that try out, the better God given athletes compete. Most of those incredible AZ athletes play baseball and not hockey so the gene pool for hockey is a fraction of other areas. If I was a parent in AZ, no way in Hell am I going to drive hours to a ice rick to practice let alone a game clear across the Valley 3 times a week. Every MN area high school has a team and they have 3 teams in every age group. We are comparing apples and oranges and it is why I am saying AZ isn't in the same league. Not in passion, not in clinics, not in resources, etc.
This is where you started. The Yotes could have a local pro player as early as next year if they get the 1st overall pick, looking doubtful at the moment. I have acknowledged numerous times that AZ isn't Canada or Mn but it is growing and will continue to do so. And again barring a serious injury or illness Matthews will be drafted 1st overall in June.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MN-Born-n-Raised
We agree. It's just that the NHL is even father away from an "Arizona" team (foreign players, foreign owner and playing in a desert). As you might guess, I don't follow any professional teams (but I do watch the Olympics). So unless my son or daughter played for the team, you won't see me as a crazed fan. I have NO problem with big-time pro sports fans. I just don't appreciate subsidizing them.
To your initial point. Certainly northern transplants and snowbirds attend games and is the reason the franchise came to this fine state in the 1st place. I played hockey myself and I have watched my son play hockey several thousand hours. But like others, I just don't see the reason why cities and states need to build bigger and bigger stadium shrines for wealthy people (more-often-than-not they are losing propositions).
With that said, the "Yotes" won't have any local pro players anytime soon. They don't have the infrastructure (youth hockey is extremely weak as compared to powerhouse states like MN). Even in MN, only 31 players are from MN and play in the NHL today. Life-to-date, we have two from AZ. See NHL Players Born in Arizona, United States | Hockey-Reference.com . Couturier only was in AZ while his Dad was a local coach. Jim Brown was born in PHX but grew-up in NY. So really, zero NHL players ever. I don't see that changing.
This is where you started. The Yotes could have a local pro player as early as next year if they get the 1st overall pick, looking doubtful at the moment. I have acknowledged numerous times that AZ isn't Canada or Mn but it is growing and will continue to do so. And again barring a serious injury or illness Matthews will be drafted 1st overall in June.
Here is where we don't agree. You said Crosby's team mates in Canada are equal to PHX are players. I said no fricken way. You talk as if AZ hockey is in the same league as SoCal. It isn't. You are suggesting it's common to leave to go play hockey. Sure. But it was mandatory in AZ; not so in MN or Canada (yet typical). I think AZ added zero value to Matthews career. Barring that, I am suggesting he is a statistical outlier. he is a great athlete who is one in a million (actually one in 1.64 million Annual IIHF survey shows growth of hockey worldwide - SBNation.com ).
I suspect eventually you will get another pro player from AZ. I have no doubt the program will grow as well. But in the current state, it is dismal at best.
We need to agree to disagree. I enjoyed the conversation.
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Until he is, it is a moot point.
You talk as if AZ hockey is in the same league as SoCal. It isn't. You are suggesting it's common to leave to go play hockey. Sure. But it was mandatory in AZ; not so in MN or Canada (yet typical). I think AZ added zero value to Matthews career. Barring that, I am suggesting he is a statistical outlier. he is a great athlete who is one in a million (actually one in 1.64 million 
