Chance to win tickets during light rail 1 yr celebration (Phoenix: how much, cheap home) - Arizona (AZ) - Page 5 - City-Data Forum

cmist · 12-15-2009, 12:48 PM

You know, as the 5th largest city, it would be a severe detriment to not have mass transit. If you want your home to be valued at big city prices, then you need to have big city amenities.

Even if you don't personally use them, it benefits the city as a whole to attract people with big city minds. The type of person that moans about mass transit is a small town thinker and might be better suited for a small town. Its this type of opposition that prevented us from keeping up with other cities, and actually allowed smaller more progressive cities to surpass us.

Your tax dollars are being wasted on all kinds of incorrigible things, light rail is only one of them. However at least its something you can see and actually use if it gets enough support and funding to extend. If it was something you COULD use and choose not to, then thats YOU wasting your tax dollars not the city.

fcorrales80 · 12-15-2009, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmist

You know, as the 5th largest city, it would be a severe detriment to not have mass transit. If you want your home to be valued at big city prices, then you need to have big city amenities.

Even if you don't personally use them, it benefits the city as a whole to attract people with big city minds. The type of person that moans about mass transit is a small town thinker and might be better suited for a small town. Its this type of opposition that prevented us from keeping up with other cities, and actually allowed smaller more progressive cities to surpass us.

Your tax dollars are being wasted on all kinds of incorrigible things, light rail is only one of them. However at least its something you can see and actually use if it gets enough support and funding to extend. If it was something you COULD use and choose not to, then thats YOU wasting your tax dollars not the city.

Wow, I couldn't have stated it any better! As for the 42,000 boarding counted as 20,000 boardings, that is incorrect. As noted by transit officials that kiosk transactions, a tap of a pass as one trip, an all day ticket as one rider, a one way ticket as another, etc, the number of new net users is closer to the 42,000 number.

Ritchie_az · 12-15-2009, 01:42 PM

"If you want your home to be valued at big city prices, then you need to have big city amenities."

...and "big city" taxes and "big city" high-cost-of-living....

"Even if you don't personally use them, it benefits the city as a whole to attract people with big city minds."

It seems to me that you have said specifically that Phoenix has grown too much. But I know what you mean: "big city minds" are welcome, but others can just go away. What does "big city mind" mean, anyway? (I know what you meant by it, but I'd like to hear it straight from the horses mouth).

"Your tax dollars are being wasted on all kinds of incorrigible things, light rail is only one of them."

So two wrongs make a right? At least you admit that the light-rail is a waste of tax dollars and is "incorrigible".

"If it was something you COULD use and choose not to, then thats YOU wasting your tax dollars not the city."

Pennsylvania spent over $300,000 for an out-house at a state park (this was probably more than 10-years-ago, but I bring it up because it made the news, you may remember). With your logic, the state only wasted the money if park visiters didn't take a crap in the thing. As long as Pennsylvania residents kept passing on the opportunity to stink up the place, they were the ones wasting money. Is that right?

exit2lef · 12-15-2009, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ritchie_az

"when was the last time you threw into a non-tax bucket for the maintenance of the roads you drive on to that gas station (and points thereafter)
i see a ton of roadwork out here and the closest thing i've paid to a direct user fee is in the form of taxes/fees on registration, gas, etc ..... that doesn't cover all the expenes though"

Almost all of the funds that pay for roads are paid for by drivers (users). They may not use the roads every day, but they use them. Very few non-drivers are paying taxes that fund roads.
The light-rail, on the other hand, is mostly funded by folks who have never used the light rail and never plan to.

Once again, you are making the error of lumping all roads together. Sure, most of us use some roads, but I have to pay taxes for a lot of roads I never intend to use and would rather not see built. A more valid comparison would be one specific road vs. light rail.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ritchie_az

"When the ongoing costs of road construction, road maintenance, highway safety, pollution, and a foreign policy designed in part to ensure continued access to cheap petroleum are all taken into account, it is likely that taxpayers are actually funding 3/4 of the cost to fill your tank."

How's that? 20% of the price I pay for gas goes to (federal, state, county and city) taxes (which, in turn, pays for all those things you said).
Again, it is almost entirely road users paying for roads, and almost entirely non-light-rail users paying for the light-rail.

Gas taxes are only a small fraction of the funding for road construction and don't even begin to offset the social costs of our addiction to private cars. If roads were really funded by gas taxes, we never would have needed the 1985 freeway tax and its successor, Proposition 400. In addition, gas taxes apply mostly to limited access highways. The maintenance of local streets that lead to and from those highways is funded mostly by general municipal and county budgets.

fcorrales80 · 12-15-2009, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ritchie_az

"If you want your home to be valued at big city prices, then you need to have big city amenities."

...and "big city" taxes and "big city" high-cost-of-living....

"Even if you don't personally use them, it benefits the city as a whole to attract people with big city minds."

It seems to me that you have said specifically that Phoenix has grown too much. But I know what you mean: "big city minds" are welcome, but others can just go away. What does "big city mind" mean, anyway? (I know what you meant by it, but I'd like to hear it straight from the horses mouth).

"Your tax dollars are being wasted on all kinds of incorrigible things, light rail is only one of them."

So two wrongs make a right? At least you admit that the light-rail is a waste of tax dollars and is "incorrigible".

"If it was something you COULD use and choose not to, then thats YOU wasting your tax dollars not the city."

Pennsylvania spent over $300,000 for an out-house at a state park (this was probably more than 10-years-ago, but I bring it up because it made the news, you may remember). With your logic, the state only wasted the money if park visiters didn't take a crap in the thing. As long as Pennsylvania residents kept passing on the opportunity to stink up the place, they were the ones wasting money. Is that right?

I understand your frustrations, but this isn't the thread to discuss them. Maybe open up one to discuss your views on transportation and transit. Before we continue off topic and risk having this thread closed, let's stick to the original point...

Ritchie_az · 12-15-2009, 01:50 PM

"As for the 42,000 boarding counted as 20,000 boardings, that is incorrect. As noted by transit officials that kiosk transactions, a tap of a pass as one trip, an all day ticket as one rider, a one way ticket as another, etc, the number of new net users is closer to the 42,000 number."

I'm calling your bluff on this one. The reason: most people are likely purchasing round-trip fare and not just one-way. If there were 42,000 people riding the light-rail (at $1.75 per ticket, per trip), the light-rail would be collecting over 3 million per month (not including weekends), which is not even close to consistant with what the light-rail claims to be collecting (surprise, according to Wikipedia, it's not even half that).

fcorrales80 · 12-15-2009, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ritchie_az

"As for the 42,000 boarding counted as 20,000 boardings, that is incorrect. As noted by transit officials that kiosk transactions, a tap of a pass as one trip, an all day ticket as one rider, a one way ticket as another, etc, the number of new net users is closer to the 42,000 number."

I'm calling your bluff on this one. The reason: most people are likely purchasing round-trip fare and not just one-way. If there were 42,000 people riding the light-rail (at $1.75 per ticket, per trip), the light-rail would be collecting over 3 million per month (not including weekends), which is not even close to consistant with what the light-rail claims to be collecting (surprise, according to Wikipedia, it's not even half that).

Again, off topic, but you have to remember that discounts are offered to a great number of people via platinum passes, students under 18, seniors over 65, multi-day passes, etc...again; please open up another thread on light rail vs road transportation if you want to discuss this...

Ritchie_az · 12-15-2009, 01:59 PM

"Once again, you are making the error of lumping all roads together. Sure, most of us use some roads, but I have to pay taxes for a lot of roads I never intend to use and would rather not see built. A more valid comparison would be one specific road vs. light rail."

There are plenty who don't ride the light-rail the full route. This will be especially true once the other lines are built. Your point is moot.

"Gas taxes are only a small fraction of the funding for road construction"

Yes, there are a lot of different taxes that fund different roads. But it is still almost entirely road users paying those taxes. The light-rail is still paid for mostly by non-light-rail users. This is true no matter how you try to slice it.

"the social costs of our addiction to private cars."

Ah, the meat and potatos. Why don't we all just stop driving and bicycle everywhere? Or walk? Or ride donkeys?
Give me a break!

"I understand your frustrations, but this isn't the thread to discuss them. Maybe open up one to discuss your views on transportation and transit. Before we continue off topic and risk having this thread closed, let's stick to the original point..."

I don't mind discussing these things here, and, if it is indeed too far off-topic (although we are still talking about the light-rail), then the mods can delete the posts and portions of posts that are off-topic.

HX_Guy · 12-15-2009, 02:01 PM

Not to mention that a great deal of the riders are ASU students and faculty that pay very little (if anything at all?) to ride the train.

Ritchie_az · 12-15-2009, 02:03 PM

So either more than half of the riders are not paying for tickets (which sounds like a serious problem) or the 20,000 ridership number is pretty darn close to being right.

And, placing us back on topic, it sounds like Metro is letting a few more people (with "Golden Tickets") ride "free" (well, the rest of us will be paying for it).