Second phase of Liberty Park (East Liberty) to start this spring (Pittsburgh: rentals, homes)

[Uptown kid]

Originally Posted by caroline2
It will also disappoint the people who know that Section 8 just doesn't work.

Well its true that section 8 doesn''t work... What neiborghoods benifited from it??? Lets see all the Hell No section8/goverment housing was a benifit: Sheredan, Fairywood, Wilkinsburg, McKees Rocks, Central Northside, old East Liberty, Clairton, Crafton Heights, Terrace Village, East Hills, McKeesport, Garfield, Homewood, Bedford Dwellings, St. Clair Village, Northview Heights, Glen Hazel, Arlington Heights, Rankin, Fineview, North Versailles. Here's the neiborghoods that stayed neutral with section8/government housing: West Homestead, Highland Park, Verona, Spring Hill, Bloomfield.

Quote:
Originally Posted by h_curtis
Come on Brain, we don't live in a world like Finland, Sweden and Norway. We live in the US where segregation is needed and it exists everywhere.


Quote: Reston Runner 86 aka Steel City Rising
Segregation is not needed. Yes, it does exist here everywhere as people VOLUNTARILY segregate themselves by class and race. There's a home in Larimer I'd love to purchase and renovate for myself, but would I really feel comfortable being the only Caucasian male in that neighborhood, let alone being a gay couple? Would a struggling African-American family feel comfortable living in an apartment somewhere in Fox Chapel and sending their children to a school where they'll be bullied because their parents can't buy them the same clothing and other "social essentials" as many other students? This country's segregation is disgusting---lily-white (and increasingly Asian) suburbs surrounding poor black inner-city neighborhoods.



I hope you ment self-segragation or do you want us to drink out of a different water fountian??? Well sure every single last black person who isn't a Steeler is hood livin in tha ghetto!!! Err wrong not really... Upper to Middle-class blacks like me dont mind living in a prodominatly white world... You'd be suprised if you opened your eye's... There are hunderends of us throught the city/suburbs! Yet thousands of us live up in da hood... Now if you opened your eye's hundrends of white people the same place.
Check out working-class/lower-class diverse/prodominatly white neiborghhods such as: Munhall, Whittaker, Lawranceville, Polish Hill, East Allegheny, Troy Hill, Spring Garden, McKees Rocks, Esplen, Sharpsburg, part of McKeesport, Glassport, Dravosboro, Port Vue, Liberty, or Pitcairn. They live almost the same way as poor black people, but with far less crime, and with out steroe-types.

[pit2atl]

Originally Posted by alleghenyangel

Slapping (comparatively) huge price tags on property in Larimer isn't going to make the area any more desirable to anyone.... It will just become an overpriced ghetto (think upper Manchester).

Well think of the Lower Hill District Crawford sq those homes are very expensive for inter city 180-300k (most are African American with money) People that pay more for their property will take care of their area! There is no trash on the streets lawns are maintained very nicely a higher price brings better people.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Ann_Arbor

While mixed income and desegregation is idealistic, Capitalism makes the best cities hands down over ones with over government involvement. Any city I am in, the urban character built by individuals outweighs anything created from top-down government.

There is no such thing as a thriving city that was built without government involvement. The best cities are the ones that achieve a reasonable balance between public and private planning and investment.

Everything I enjoy about Pittsburgh is because someone had gumption, pride and an entrepreneurial spirit to do it- shops, cafes, homes, whole neighborhoods. Our very best buildings downtown represent this, while the dull ones (Gateway/Allegheny Center) are lifeless and banal. As an architect, I hope that new social spaces reflect a more livable, urban quality; I still am hesitant to jump on board.

Building design is indeed an area in which lots of private activity is desirable. But name me a thriving area of Pittsburgh that isn't making use of public streets and often public transit, public police and fire services, nuisance codes, and so on. Nothing you see in a city can truly be viewed in isolation--it is all a product of a very complex interaction of forces, and many of those forces are going to be public.

To me, it is awkward to see a city apply a top-down scheme to selectively locate people of different classes- it should instead be the natural evolution of the city to figure that out.

Again, this is a false dichotomy. These developments in East Liberty are going to contain a mix of market rate and subsidized units.

but this is Pittsburgh, it's fairly small, there is a decent bus system and it doesn't take long to get wherever you work while still living in an affordable neighborhood.

That will rapidly change if every neighborhood with good transit access becomes gentrified. East Liberty alone won't do that, but if we don't have a plan in place for cases like East Liberty, that is what will happen eventually.

Natural evolution of cities is very novel to me, un-perfect, but complex and real. I have a heart for poor people, but I don't want to the government rendering this town with a class map.

Seriously, there is nothing "natural" about cities. They are the most artificial living arrangements known to humanity, and always and everywhere have been developed with heavy government involvement. Again, that isn't to say we need a totalitarian approach, but we do need to recognize that there must be a healthy balance between public and private planning and investment.

[pit2atl]

Originally Posted by Uptown kid

Originally Posted by caroline2


Check out working-class/lower-class diverse/prodominatly white neiborghhods such as: Munhall, Whittaker, Lawranceville, Polish Hill, East Allegheny, Troy Hill, Spring Garden, McKees Rocks, Esplen, Sharpsburg, part of McKeesport, Glassport, Dravosboro, Port Vue, Liberty, or Pitcairn. They live almost the same way as poor black people, but with far less crime, and with out steroe-types.

100% right but that has nothing to do with what where talking about...... where not talkin about race we are talking about social class.


&
Why do you guys have so much hate for government involvement? What you want private business running around making their own laws doing whatever the hell they want...

Everyone says this isn’t going to work that isn’t going to work WHAT IDEAS DO YOU HAVE? it’s easy to point the finger but what are you doing to improve PGH intercity?

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by rashan5

So what’s the solution? You cannot get rid of section 8 completely.

You can't really look at housing policy in isolation. Concentrated poverty was created by a combination of policies with respect to land-use, transportation, education, medical services, and so on. It is also the product of decades of these policies acting, so you need a comprehensive approach, and you can't expect it to work overnight.

That said, with respect to Section 8, the basic problem is that Section 8 hasn't dispersed people enough, and instead there is still too much concentration in terms of where Section 8 vouchers end up being used. One possible answer to that problem is to limit the number of Section 8 vouchers that can be used in a given area, perhaps in relation to local density. Again, you really need to be looking at this issue in a comprehensive manner to make that work in an ideal way, but such a rule would likely help.

Of course this is the exact opposite of what the segregationists want, which is to create suburban slums like they have in Third World countries.

[pit2atl]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

You can't really look at housing policy in isolation. Concentrated poverty was created by a combination of policies with respect to land-use, transportation, education, medical services, and so on. It is also the product of decades of these policies acting, so you need a comprehensive approach, and you can't expect it to work overnight.

That said, with respect to Section 8, the basic problem is that Section 8 hasn't dispersed people enough, and instead there is still too much concentration in terms of where Section 8 vouchers end up being used. One possible answer to that problem is to limit the number of Section 8 vouchers that can be used in a given area, perhaps in relation to local density. Again, you really need to be looking at this issue in a comprehensive manner to make that work in an ideal way, but such a rule would likely help.

Of course this is the exact opposite of what the segregationists want, which is to create suburban slums like they have in Third World countries.

very solid point!

[pit2atl]

with section 8 I doubt that they will totally eliminate the program since landlords and developers also benefit from it! I would like to get a apartment building and let the govt send me a check everymonth on time to let ppl stay their thats capitalism!! ha!

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by rashan5

Why do you guys have so much hate for government involvement? What you want private business running around making their own laws doing whatever the hell they want...

Indeed, and we know exactly what happens when policy is made that way--it creates shantytowns in the suburbs.

Everyone says this isn’t going to work that isn’t going to work WHAT IDEAS DO YOU HAVE? it’s easy to point the finger but what are you doing to improve PGH intercity?

The problem is the segregationists simply do not care about the good people living in these neighborhoods. They want to take everyone of lower socioeconomic class, good or bad, and shove them into suburban slums. That is their idea of "improving" Pittsburgh.

And of course that plan can "work"--again, we know it is possible to reserve cities for wealthier people and shove all the poorer people into suburban shantytowns, because lots of places, mostly in Third World countries, have done exactly that. I think that outcome would represent a massive failure of policy, but they think that would be great.

[Uptown kid]

Rashaun 5 on the bottom of page 3 we got into race tied in with social-economic class so I chimed in with race

[gg]

Originally Posted by SteelCityRising

My vision for Pittsburgh is much different from yours, then. I don't want to see Fox Chapel's exclusive wealth super-imposed over the entire city. I want to see an entire city of mixed races and socioeconomic classes.

So rich white parents don't have to send their kids to the same school as poor brown kids?

What a distorted view of what I said. East Liberty is PRIME real estate. It is flat and could be amazing. The downtown of East Liberty should be used as such. The place has way more potential than Shadyside. Using the area for its highest and best use would be a true democracy. You seem to want it to be a poor neighborhood. It already is that and many of the people NOT ALL have taken it for granted. It should be a cornerstone. It has nothing to do with Fox Chapel. Like I said I LIVED a couple blocks from Peabody High School for years. I am not talking about some outsider looking in. I was there three years ago and may move back there at some point. Your view of me is way off base.

You bring up race. I said there are borders that don't have anything to do with race. They have to do with pride. I already stated that. You are the one talking about race. If people want to deal drugs on the streets and there is gun fire that seems to follow that activity around, that isn't want East Liberty should be. Seems you and I do differ on its best use. I am trying to progress the area into a prime area and you are wanting to hold back progression. To be honest, I am going to eventually win. What is going to happen there is probably going to go my way. People have had enough of these areas that are dangerous. People are tired of drugs and guns. Shadyside is overflowing. It is logical it expands into that direction, because the other directions are more similar and pretty expensive.

If you want to live in a free market you are going to have to learn that money is what buys and fixes things. If people are going to put a bunch of money in an area, they will need to make something back. Section 8? I certainly hope not.